Necropsy results: Fatty Liver

[Bawkbok]

Thank you all for the input on feed, foraging and all things food. I'm refraining from all mealworms and seed snacks for a week and will then use it sparingly. I'll still provide greens from the yard for them.

I currently have a bag of Knight's "poultry" which I guess can be considered all flock? It is 25% protein, 3% fat, Calcium 1.4%. This is probably too much protein for the littles - age 15-20 weeks? so I'm not using it right now.

I have a bag of Kalmbach starter 18% protein that all are currently eating, including the 7 month old Golden Comet that has not begun laying yet. I had her on Kalmbach layer until the younger pullets arrived and switched her to their starter feed. I'm thinking about mixing the two feeds together or is this a bad thing?

The Kalmbach's first ingredient is corn, which I don't like.
The Knight's food has a lot of plant products and grain products.

I feel like free ranging makes for happier chickens and happier chickens makes healthy chickens - not to mention the exercise factor. I don't know if this is the case or not. Stands to reason. No animal likes to be caged all the time - including me.

 

[Dynamissa]

Thank you all for the input on feed, foraging and all things food. I'm refraining from all mealworms and seed snacks for a week and will then use it sparingly. I'll still provide greens from the yard for them.

I currently have a bag of Knight's "poultry" which I guess can be considered all flock? It is 25% protein, 3% fat, Calcium 1.4%. This is probably too much protein for the littles - age 15-20 weeks? so I'm not using it right now.

I have a bag of Kalmbach starter 18% protein that all are currently eating, including the 7 month old Golden Comet that has not begun laying yet. I had her on Kalmbach layer until the younger pullets arrived and switched her to their starter feed. I'm thinking about mixing the two feeds together or is this a bad thing?

The Kalmbach's first ingredient is corn, which I don't like.
The Knight's food has a lot of plant products and grain products.

I feel like free ranging makes for happier chickens and happier chickens makes healthy chickens - not to mention the exercise factor. I don't know if this is the case or not. Stands to reason. No animal likes to be caged all the time - including me.

I’d love to let mine range in my backyard - it’s a good size, but given we’re shoulder to shoulder with. Neighbors and it’s against the ordinance to have free birds, we have to figure something else out here. I wouldn’t mind making a loop “Chunnel” with an other pasture attached to it elsewhere but we have fence gates to worry about blocking and our yard floods with heavy rain ugh, so frustrating .

 

[Bawkbok]

I understand. We also have a small yard and neighbors on all sides that don't like chickens, but that's not my problem. What is wrong with people?
Our yard floods also during heavy rain but tends to drain quickly since it's sand. The top does not dry out quickly and stays sticky as the dogs (and us) track it into the house all the time. I'm learning to dislike sand in all it's forms.

 

[SourRoses]

This is a myth, and nutrition advice has moved on a bit. See now

There are scientists educated specifically in Poultry Nutrition who publish in accredited science journals, they have formulated the standardized diets for poultry.
They are employed by the poultry industry to help maintain millions of production fowl.

I'm sorry, but I've never viewed that fad diet author quoted in your thread as a legitimate source. An opinion piece does not compare well to biologically tested facts.

 

[Altairsky]

They are employed by the poultry industry to help maintain millions of production fowl.

Production hens that industry keeps alive for no more than 2 years and meat birds that lives no more than a bunch of weeks.
Poultry industry don't care about health and longevity of pet birds, it cares just about maximizing production at the lowest price for no more time than the industry cares about.

 

[SourRoses]

First of all I highly doubt too much grass makes chickens fat. I would not worry about grass or greens of any kind. Grass converts to protein. Look at grass fed beef. It is less fatty than commercial feed lot beef. Generally they finish them off with corn to put on weight and fat.

Also most bugs are protein. Grubs are more fatty but just how many grubs are they going to find in a day?

Black soldier fly larvae have a higher protein content than meal worms but a few of either isn't going to make your chickens fat.

High energy foods are carbs. Scratch grain is mostly corn with some wheat or other grains mixed in. Sunflower seeds are fatty due to the oil content.

On the subject of grass... it's not "bad" per say, or something I would avoid letting my chickens eat, but it is full of sugars and sugar converts to fat. For those worried about weight management, sugary foods should go long before healthy protein.
Cows have a very different digestive system as ruminants. Grass is their species appropriate food source.
Chickens, as birds, have a different digestive process from mammals like us humans. So what seems like a health food for us can be a junk food for them, and vice versa. Humans shouldn't have near the ratio of grains that chicken feed is based on.

On the subject of bugs... just read the back label on any bag of bugs, whether Mealworms, Black Soldier Fly Larvae, etc. The fat content is extremely high, I've seen one that was 68%.

The most energy intensive thing a bird can do is flap its wings. Walking and running don't compare. Flapping requires a state of high tension through most of the muscles in the body. That's how many wild birds don't have issues eating fatty seeds and nuts.
We have ground dwelling birds that don't have to roam a forest hunting for food. At the same time, they need to eat more food to lay an unnatural number of eggs and many gain larger than natural body sizes. That's where the low fat standard diet comes in to prevent nutritional consequences.

 

[ChicNmom]

Cows have a very different digestive system as ruminants. Grass is their species appropriate food source.

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be a jerk but what is species appropriate food for chickens? What have they been eating for thousands of years before people invented chicken feed?

 

[SourRoses]

Production hens that industry keeps alive for no more than 2 years and meat birds that lives no more than a bunch of weeks.
Poultry industry don't care about health and longevity of pet birds, it cares just about maximizing production at the lowest price for no more time than the industry cares about.

This is partly true. They don't care about long life, but its the genetics selected for (maximum eggs) and lighting to force maximum laying that really take it out of the hens. Not the nutrition.
The nutrition scientists are responsible for helping to support that extreme level of egg laying. The 16% protein diet is the bare minimum and cheapest diet, since protein is the most expensive component.

Backyard chicken keepers that chose non-production breeds see a longer laying life (3-5 years instead of 2) though less eggs per year. Most of us allow our hens to rest through winter / when they feel like it.

I feed mine 20% free choice. At times, when growing heavily feathered breeds, I've upped the protein to 24-25% using gamebird starter mixed in.
The studied maximum healthy level of protein for chickens (what they can use, not have to process and excrete) is 26%.
I believe my birds to be healthy, although just like anyone I've had losses for a variety of causes. Mine get exercise in a large yard, rather than free ranging... that's something anyone can do with some extra fencing. When we let them out we often sit out there and watch them, it's fun.

 

[SourRoses]

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be a jerk but what is species appropriate food for chickens? What have they been eating for thousands of years before people invented chicken feed?

You're not being a jerk, don't worry!

It's a good question. Junglefowl are omnivores that eat a large variety of foods from the forest. From grains, greens, seeds, bugs, invertebrates, small reptiles, fruits, and so on. They have to work very hard to get enough to eat and to avoid predators. They're always moving to stay with the flock during foraging. So this natural diet can be much higher in fat yet be healthy.

The hens lay far, far fewer eggs, and only during one time of year. That's a lot of vitamins and protein she is not having to source from a higher fat diet.
Does that make more sense of it? (I don't mean that sassy, I mean let me know if it still doesn't make sense)
Whereas most of our domestic chickens are kept in limited diversity environments. They may dig for bugs and find that the only fun treat, so they keep digging and eat more than they should. Then they go lay down to rest and digest all that fat for a while. It's just different.

 

[Bawkbok]

Thanks for your reply, SourRoses. That's interesting - I didn't realize flapping wings required the most energy. Our Buff Orpington likes to chase the Black Australorp around the run, flapping and chasing her all around. The BA jumps up on perches, runs under logs, up on other perches, trying to get away. Perhaps they'll lose some of that fat I've been over feeding them in the way of meal worms and snacks. I can only hope. Don't know if they're working out the hierarchy thing still (been one week). I thought that was all worked out. The BO seems to be higher than the BA in the chain. My husband thought they were playing. Do chickens "play" in that way?
I'll stop plucking grass for them now too. Feeling guilty thinking I've been helping them all along.