Need a No GMO, No Soy, NO PEAS feed. Halp!

[Weeg]

I'm sorry but I don't think that I have any suggestions for you.
Would also like to add that I dont see any "drama" on this thread. Members are simply trying to suggest feeds that work for them, and give their thoughts on what feeds will fit your criteria. You don't want opinions, but I'm just seeing others making suggestions based on what feeds they have used. I my opinion, actually seeing the feed is a much better source than reading the label on the bag. Being a bit more open minded may help your search.
I hope my post doesn't come off as rood, I wrote it will best intentions. Good luck in your search.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

How about this? She mixes black oil sunflower seeds, whole corn, cleaned oats, diatomaceous earth, and grit.

Yes @JacinLarkwell , don't feed Becky's Mix. and definitely don't feed Becky's no Soy mix.


Targets for a complete chicken feed, according to NCRS, USDA, Universities like UGA, etc etc etc vary a bit with breed, differences in the research findings, etc, but in broad ranges, they recommend Protein between 16-20%, Fiber 3.5% +/-1%, Fat 3.5% +/-1% (+2% for CX being fattened for table weight, NOT for health), with an amino acide profile for the four most limiting of Methionine 0.6%-0.3% (higher for younger birds), Lysine 1.1%-0.7% (higher for younger birds), Threonine 0.8%-0.6%, Tryptophan .3-0.2%.

Garden Betty's mix calculates out (dry) as 15.8% Protein, 8.1% fiber, 14.1% fat!!! and AA content of 03, 0.6, 0.55, 0.21 (respectively). As fed (accounting for the moisture content), the numbers are even worse.

Her no corn, no soy, mix is 15.08% Protein, 8.72% fiber, 14.85% fat!!!, with AA of 0.3%, 0.57%, 0.53%, 0.21% (respectively). Again, "as fed" is worse.


While there is, of course, variation in sources (and varieties), BOSS is generally given number around 16% protein (not bad) and 48% fat!!!! So when using it in a feed, the first thing you have to do is thin it out with low fat sources to get closer to target. Its AA is pretty decent, .37, .66, .61, .22.

Corn is low protein, around 9.5% (best case, some of the new strains are as low as 7%), 2.5% fiber, 4.3% fat. Its AA is pretty terrible. 0.2, 0.29, 0.34, 0.07% because its protein is so low. So every scoup of corn makes it harder to hit AA targets, doesn't help with fat, and lowers overall protein.

Naked or Dehulled Oats helps make it a more concentrated nutrition source. Call it 13.1, 4.2 fiber, 5.1 fat, AA of 0.24, 0.55, 0.47, 0.16

DE and Grits have no nutritional value whatsoever, and DE's only value in feed is *possibly* assisting in killing grain mites and weevils burrowing through feed that's been kept in storage too long.

Therefore, and feed as described from those ingredients in combination will be protein deficient, massively high in fat, and have an inferior Amino Acid profile, further aggravating health concerns associated with protein deficient diets. The excess fat, of course, is associated with fatty liver disease and a host of other nutritional maladies.

My sources for nutritional values are Feedipedia.Org. There are, of course, other sources, but Feedipedia has the advantage of being one of the most complete - so I can't be accused of cherry picking data from different sources.

 

[PeepOverlord]

Any weevil in the feed? Dump some out on a white piece of paper and shine a light on it. They should stsrt crawling if any are there.

I haven't seen any bugs but I didn't know about the white paper and a light trick. THANKS for that! Any EvilWeevils I've ever seen in grain were pretty obvious. Oh man, I gotta check right now. brb..

YES. One of the three feeds has tiny black weevils. I've never seen any so tiny, or black ones.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Getting back to the OP's request...

Peas.

When you don't use Soy, one of the few high protein, mostly complete AA sources in the plant world, and you are trying to keep fat levels down (unlike Garden Betty preying on the ignorance of those who see her slick videos and believe her gardening skills in any way relate to her chicken keeping abilities), Peas look really attractive.

Winter peas (again, Feedipedia.org as my source) have a dry nutritional analysis of 23.9% protein (that's great), 6% fiber (high, but not rediculously so, and there are plenty of low fiber nutrition sources this can be combined with), fat 1.2% (really useful, that, to compensate for high fat sources like corn or very high fat sources like seeds). Its AA profile isn't bad, either. 0.24 (way low - I keep mentioning how hard it is to find good plant Methionine sources...), Lysine 1.72% (excellent, will compensate for other, deficient, sources), Thronine 0.91% (very good, will compensate for other, deficient, sources), and Trypophan 0.22% (meets needs, and the easiest of the four to achieve).

So, with winter peas looking so damned good, why aren't they used more???

From Feedipedia.org:

Potential constraints

Antitryptic activity​

Trypsin inhibitors are the main antinutritional factor in peas, although peas are one of the grain legumes with the least trypsin inhibitor content, usually lower than 2% of the protein content (raw soybeans contain 8 times this amount). There are large varietal differences in antitryptic factors. The trypsin inhibiting activity of 33 European spring pea varieties ranged from 1.69 to 7.56 trypsin inhibiting units (TIU), while the level in winter peas was 7.34-11.24 TIU (Leterme et al., 1998). Smooth peas contain more trypsin inhibitors than wrinkled peas (Leterme et al., 1989; Perrot, 1995).
Trypsin inhibitors bind with trypsin in the small intestine, preventing protein digestion. They also induce pancreatic enlargement and increase protein secretion, causing lower N retention, lower growth and lower feed efficiency in monogastric species, including pre-ruminant animals (Perrot, 1995; Rackis et al., 1986). In ruminants, trypsin inhibitors are degraded in the rumen and are not a concern (Fuller, 2004).

Tannins​

Tannins are known to reduce protein digestibility in monogastrics because they bind with protein prior to their digestion. Tannin content is related to the seed color, grains with dark seed coats containing more tannins (Myer et al., 2001). Tannin content is also much lower in white flowered peas than in coloured flowered peas (Grosjean et al., 1986; Canbolat et al., 2007; Prolea, 2008).

Lectins​

Lectins are proteins able to bind glycoproteins and carbohydrates. They act in the small intestine by interfering in the absorption of the end-products of digestion by binding and disrupting the epithelial cells (Dixon et al., 1992). They represent about 2.5% of pea protein (Perrot, 1995).
Improving the nutritive value of peas by decreasing trypsin inhibitors and tannins is the goal of many breeding programs (Gatel, 1995). Modern cultivars of "protein peas" are tannin-free and have low concentrations of trypsin inhibitors, which makes them particularly suitable for animal feeding, even in the unprocessed form for monogastrics (Mihailovic et al., 2005).

 

[PeepOverlord]

Yes @JacinLarkwell , don't feed Becky's Mix. and definitely don't feed Becky's no Soy mix.


Targets for a complete chicken feed, according to NCRS, USDA, Universities like UGA, etc etc etc vary a bit with breed, differences in the research findings, etc, but in broad ranges, they recommend Protein between 16-20%, Fiber 3.5% +/-1%, Fat 3.5% +/-1% (+2% for CX being fattened for table weight, NOT for health), with an amino acide profile for the four most limiting of Methionine 0.6%-0.3% (higher for younger birds), Lysine 1.1%-0.7% (higher for younger birds), Threonine 0.8%-0.6%, Tryptophan .3-0.2%.

Garden Betty's mix calculates out (dry) as 15.8% Protein, 8.1% fiber, 14.1% fat!!! and AA content of 03, 0.6, 0.55, 0.21 (respectively). As fed (accounting for the moisture content), the numbers are even worse.

Her no corn, no soy, mix is 15.08% Protein, 8.72% fiber, 14.85% fat!!!, with AA of 0.3%, 0.57%, 0.53%, 0.21% (respectively). Again, "as fed" is worse.


While there is, of course, variation in sources (and varieties), BOSS is generally given number around 16% protein (not bad) and 48% fat!!!! So when using it in a feed, the first thing you have to do is thin it out with low fat sources to get closer to target. Its AA is pretty decent, .37, .66, .61, .22.

Corn is low protein, around 9.5% (best case, some of the new strains are as low as 7%), 2.5% fiber, 4.3% fat. Its AA is pretty terrible. 0.2, 0.29, 0.34, 0.07% because its protein is so low. So every scoup of corn makes it harder to hit AA targets, doesn't help with fat, and lowers overall protein.

Naked or Dehulled Oats helps make it a more concentrated nutrition source. Call it 13.1, 4.2 fiber, 5.1 fat, AA of 0.24, 0.55, 0.47, 0.16

DE and Grits have no nutritional value whatsoever, and DE's only value in feed is *possibly* assisting in killing grain mites and weevils burrowing through feed that's been kept in storage too long.

Therefore, and feed as described from those ingredients in combination will be protein deficient, massively high in fat, and have an inferior Amino Acid profile, further aggravating health concerns associated with protein deficient diets. The excess fat, of course, is associated with fatty liver disease and a host of other nutritional maladies.

My sources for nutritional values are Feedipedia.Org. There are, of course, other sources, but Feedipedia has the advantage of being one of the most complete - so I can't be accused of cherry picking data from different sources.

THANK YOU for saving me from wasting any more money on bad feed! I'm all for buying bulk organic grain and making my own.
I'll check out that site and hopefully figure out a good mixture/ratio of grains.

For anyone worried that my hens are malnourished or mistreated:
The 8 hens free range dawn to dusk on 1/2 acre with wild berries, pecans, pine nuts, good grasses, an insane amount of bugs, worms, lizards, snakes and lots of [human] edible weeds. But winter's coming and alot of those yummy things won't be as abundant so we still need good quality feed.
They have multiple dishes of Aragonite calcium around to pick at as they need. They have shallow pits I dug out and re-filled with 50/50 sifted soil and DE for "bathing".
They get occasional flaxseed, chia pudding,. They share my fruit, and are allowed to raid a portion of my garden for whatever veggies and marigolds they want.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I would very much like to say which feeds I've wasted hard earned money on, but I don't want to be scolded for "outing" them on a public forum.
And you missed the part where I said the hens (and the wild critters) won't eat the corn, peas, or dust/mud under any circumstances. Not wet, not soaked, not "fermented" and certainly not dry

Name Names.

We do all the time.

Plenty of threads on the feed forums of new chicken owners whose birds are suffering deficiencies, while feeding them very expensive whole grain organic feeds. Roughly half as many complaining about the powder.

Recommends for fixing both are generally the same. Mix it all with water, serve as wet mash, sprouted, or fermented feed to help ensure they get their vitamin powder and don't select out favored grains in accordance with their position in the flock - just like recalcitrant wild birds throwing all the red millet out of the feeder, so they can get at the white mllet and sunflower seeds...

Also, do you know how to read your feed bag for mill dates???

Apart from the vitamin premix most organic mills are adding to their grain mix to make it a complete feed, the next most common source of dust in feed bags is age and handling. Not just organic feeds, either - TSC's DuMor brand is famous for bags of pellets pouring out like dry grout mix.

 

[PeepOverlord]

Getting back to the OP's request...

Peas.

When you don't use Soy, one of the few high protein, mostly complete AA sources in the plant world, and you are trying to keep fat levels down (unlike Garden Betty preying on the ignorance of those who see her slick videos and believe her gardening skills in any way relate to her chicken keeping abilities), Peas look really attractive.

Winter peas (again, Feedipedia.org as my source) have a dry nutritional analysis of 23.9% protein (that's great), 6% fiber (high, but not rediculously so, and there are plenty of low fiber nutrition sources this can be combined with), fat 1.2% (really useful, that, to compensate for high fat sources like corn or very high fat sources like seeds). Its AA profile isn't bad, either. 0.24 (way low - I keep mentioning how hard it is to find good plant Methionine sources...), Lysine 1.72% (excellent, will compensate for other, deficient, sources), Thronine 0.91% (very good, will compensate for other, deficient, sources), and Trypophan 0.22% (meets needs, and the easiest of the four to achieve).

So, with winter peas looking so damned good, why aren't they used more???

From Feedipedia.org:

PREACH!!!!! Thank You posting this.
It's going to start a whole pea-drama thing but this is exactly why I'm so mad about paying $1.60/lb for a bag of inedible peas. Peas have become a widely used, very cheap source of protein in animal foods - and they're not good for cats, dogs, or chickens. Esp older animals.
All the protein or nutrition in the world is garbage if it can't be digested, absorbed and used by the body.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

@U_Stormcrow, any thoughts? I know DE is pretty useless, and grit shouldn't be mixed into feed, but I'm not sure on those three grains(?)

I've watched a couple of that ladies videos and she's pretty out there...

 

[U_Stormcrow]

THANK YOU for saving me from wasting any more money on bad feed! I'm all for buying bulk organic grain and making my own.
I'll check out that site and hopefully figure out a good mixture/ratio of grains.

For anyone worried that my hens are malnourished or mistreated:
The 8 hens free range dawn to dusk on 1/2 acre with wild berries, pecans, pine nuts, good grasses, an insane amount of bugs, worms, lizards, snakes and lots of [human] edible weeds. But winter's coming and alot of those yummy things won't be as abundant so we still need good quality feed.
They have multiple dishes of Aragonite calcium around to pick at as they need. They have shallow pits I dug out and re-filled with 50/50 sifted soil and DE for "bathing".
They get occasional flaxseed, chia pudding,. They share my fruit, and are allowed to raid a portion of my garden for whatever veggies and marigolds they want.

Virtually impossible to make a complete feed at home - most go the garden Betty route with no knowledge of poultry food science, and a lot of buzz words from human food trends.

If you plan to start from "scratch", however, I recommend you read up on methionine sources from plants - and why organic feeds are still allowed to add synthetic methionine to their mixes, and also look for Justin Rhodes' make at home.

You should be able to find Organic Corn, Oats, and Wheat. Organic Hard Wheat (often called Durum, or Winter Wheat) is higher protein, and almost universally better to the overall composition.

He uses winter peas for the Lysine and Threonine - you can see in the chart how much better legumes are than grains for those amino acids. You will need to find a substitute.

Finally, the key to his mix is fish meal. I know menhaden fish meal can be found non GMO. You should be able to find porcine blood meal non GMO as well. Uncertain either can be found as organic. But the inclusion of Fish meal in the mix at 1 part in 10 is absolutely critical to reaching desired Methionine levels without the use of synthetics.

Otherwise, you are looking to buy a big bag of organic pre-mix from somewhere, and add it to your own feed, hoiping that your bags of corn, oats, etc have nutritional values near standards. Some of them - corn particularly, have huge ranges based on time of year, variety of corn, location of planting, etc...

/edit One piece of human food advice that may benefit you as you look to make a complete chicken feed? Read up on "protein complimentation", particularly as those practicing vegan diets are now doing in an effort to avoid some of the nutritional difficulties that came of past, less well researched, efforts. Its the scientific truth underlying the ages old culinary practice of pairing beans with rice, beans with pastas. Why nuts and seeds were often tossed on salads or slivered and served with veggies (apart from the textural benefits, of course).

Without soy (a legume) or peas (another legume), you are going to have to look to "field peas", which most call beans, to get some of your AA profile - and they need to be heat treated to address some of their anti-nutritive properties.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Upon further research, I find you can purchase (admittedly, big bags, quite possibly more than you can use while it remains fresh) Organic standards meeting Fish Meal and also Poultry Nutri-Balancer from Fertrell Company at other outlets - Fertrell being the maker of those things often used at local mills to mix with whole grains in their own feed formulations.

Not knowing where you are, I can't recommend nearby stores, but the nutribalancer is meant to be mixed with a ton of feed - probably impractical, while the fish meal in a 10% mix would be 500# worth, what I feed in a month.