need information about what I found after necropsy

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by sinkorswim, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. sinkorswim

    sinkorswim Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 12, 2012
    Melbourne,Florida
    I posted on here a couple days ago about a sick hen.I was told it could be vent gleet I was also told it could be oviduct infection.Long story short she prolapsed with a lot of bleeding so idecided to end her suffering.I did do a necropsy for the sake of the rest of flock.What I saw was shocking.Understand I have cut open about 15 chickens over the years.I did not take photos (should have) but now I am left without answers.Maybe some one here would know...Here is what I wrote about it.
    I know how to cut carefully and maybe not the same route as a real necropsy.I went down the breastline,from under the breast bone to the vent.
    1) what causes gross amounts of fluids in the abdomen.(thats what was causing the prolapse,she was trying to rid herself of the fluid but couldnt)The fluid was cloudy,best description was a bit darker than human urine.I easily got out 2 pints before it quit.(all that fluid came out of nic of skin,it came out like a fountain)Oh yeah and she had quit having bowel movements and the vent leakage had all stopped this morning-maybe close to 12n

    [FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]2)I dont know the technical terms so bear with me.The webbing around your intestines.That thin layer of skin.It was riddled with white lumps.These were hard lumps,not something that could be broken or smashed between my fingers.Various sizes.Maybe a bit bigger than the plastic top (that round ball) on a sewing pin.It was riddled with them.all through out-
    3) as you followed the intestines up,towards the breast bone,almost at the top.The intestine turned snow white,and it was rock hard.I cut into it,It kinda looked like a tiny bit of puss inside.That was only about 3-4 inches of the intestine.[/FONT]
    4) the little yolk looking things that will turn into eggs.One was black,not smooth outside,mishapen.Inside was,black liquid and something that was kinda like pudding.Other little egg sacs were malformed.Blood vessels on the outside.They just didnt look right.And maybe it was because she was big chicken but they big to me.Like those really big marbles,maybe a bit bigger (sidenote she always laid small eggs for her size)
    5)and lastly maybe I made a wrong cut,but I dont think so because I wasnt far enough over but when I finally made the incision all the way down.when the final bit of liquid was draining out 2 or 3 what seemed to be egg yolks (almost full size) fell out,in tact.


    Any ideas on what this may be?Nothing looked like what I have seen in other chickens I have cut up.Nothing in this bird looked right.Well I take that back she had a great liver.Beautiful and healthy.She was sold to me as a Jersey Giant,I think she was more Austrolorp as she was short and low to the ground.She was an easy 10-12 pounds and had a good 1-2 inches of yellow fat to cut through before I got to internals.It is important I figure this out as I have her sister.Her sister is much smaller,at max she is 7-8 pounds.She is healthy right now but she is broody.She is sitting on a nest of Black Copper Maran and wheaten maran eggs I bought.Also whatever this is or was....all my other chickens have been exposed.
     
  2. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    Jacksonville, Florida
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  3. speckledhen

    speckledhen Intentional Solitude Premium Member

    The thread dawg53 gave you above is from one of my hens. Your description below could be indicative of a reproductive cancer, but a picture would have been more helpful than a description.
    Quote: Internal laying, salpingitis, egg yolk peritonitis, ovarian cancer can all have the end result and look the same from the outside of a hen. They are all reproductive malfunctions, all may cause fluid retention.

    The description of the intestines as hard and white didn't sound as if you were talking about intestine, but possibly the oviduct filled with egg material mixed with solid infection. If it was the actual intestine, I've never seen what you describe. Did any of it look like these cheesy masses out of an oviduct of one of my hens who died from internal laying? There were masses found in the abdomen as well.

    [​IMG]


    These other threads may also be helpful to you.


    https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=195347

    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...lks-update-rip-beautiful-reba/50#post_8068877

    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ences-on-egg-reproduction-production-necropsy
     
  4. sinkorswim

    sinkorswim Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 12, 2012
    Melbourne,Florida
    I regret not taking photos,I really regret it.But my husband has no stomach for that sort of thing and I was sobbing,without gloves,doing this on my kitchen table as I had no where else to do it.I live in the city so I had no where to bury her.My dogs would have dug her up,if the local raccoons didn't.This happened Sunday night so I had no choice but to place her in the trash and it went by 9am the next morning.I really wish I had taken pictures as I had NEVER seen anything like it.
    It was her intestines that were hard and white.The tube started at her vent and you could follow it all the way up the body.I was preforming the necropsy moments after death so her intestines were firm/full (not sure how to describe that) But they we rent deflated and empty looking as you see in some necropsy photos that were preformed after the body was chilled or a day later.I used to be a vet tech so I have some medical knowledge but we never did birds especially chickens.Anything I know about chickens is a 10 year accumulation of knowledge while running my own hobby farm.This was her intestine but it was very high up.Almost the beginning of the intestine.I had never seen anything like it.Since it was so hard I questioned if there was something lodged in there,so I cut it open.It wasn't just hard on the outside but all the way through.Inside wasn't as white,it had some fleshy tone to it but not much(maybe 1/8 of a teaspoon) .Inside was just a bit of yellow.It was kinda a thick liquid.Maybe like the consistency of gravy.
    There were no masses like you had shown in your photographs.I did read your thread.I am so sorry you had to go through that multiple times.At this point I am also scared to death I may see this more than once as all my chickens are hatchery chicks,and my chickens are only 1.5 years going on 2 years old.
    The thing that really freaked me out was all the nodules.As you pull the intestines out there is a paper thin layer of skin,some call it webbing.That webbing looked like some one had poured small curd cottage cheese all over it.There were just lumps every where.Cancer is the only thing I can think of but thought maybe someone knew,had seen this before.
    I have spent a lot of time looking at necropsy photos here on BYC and what I can find on the Internet.I have yet to find anything that looks eve remotely close to what I saw.Making me wish even more I had taken those pics.
    Christy
    my 2 leghorns lay very regularly,my production red lays regularly,Raven,Crows sister is sitting on eggs right now.Of my 3 americanas I usually only get one egg a day,although I usually see more than one in a nesting box (leaving me to start wondering if I already have another hen suffering from this.All my americanas have always been deep bodied but so far I dont see the distention I saw in Crow.I rarely have ever gotten 3 blue eggs in a day but dropping down to 1 egg per day makes me wonder.
     
  5. speckledhen

    speckledhen Intentional Solitude Premium Member

    It still sounds more like the oviduct to me, Christy. Golly, I do wish I had pictures of what you saw, but I understand having to dispose of the body quickly. The oviduct would start at the vent and go upward, along the back, whereas the intestines go downward from the vent. I've never seen anything in the intestines like that, though doesn't mean you were wrong about what you were seeing or where it was. If it was something I haven't truly seen previously, would have been a great thing for my fountain of knowledge.

    Those masses I posted pics of were inside my hens' oviducts like sausages in casings, plus there were others like huge baseballs in the abdomens on occasion. Some had fluid like Olivia and Ivy, some didn't.

    The cottage cheese stuff does sound like what you find in a hen with reproductive cancer, much like I found in Reba in one of those threads, but of course, we are only guessing here about your hen from the description you gave. I'm not a vet, of course, just have lots of sad experience, coupled with research, along with quite a few necropsies under my belt. Have seen some bad stuff inside those poor hens. If it was one of the reproductive malfunctions, you will be seeing more of it in your hatchery hens, trust me.

    You mentioned a fleshy thing. Was it similar to this? This was something Reba had expelled not long before she died, maybe a few weeks.



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  6. CluckyCharms

    CluckyCharms Chillin' With My Peeps

    I'm so sorry about your hen's passing.

    I don't know anything about organs, or innards, or chickens for that matter - but is it too late to remove her from her burial place (or wherever her carcass is) and take pictures now?
     
  7. sinkorswim

    sinkorswim Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 12, 2012
    Melbourne,Florida
    I live in the city so I could not bury her in my yard.My dogs would have dug her up if not the local raccoon population.I live in Florida where it is usually pretty warm and you dont want a body laying around because of fast decomposition.I had no choice other than to place her in the trash,the trash was picked up less than 12 hours later.If I had put more thought into it,rather than just grieving her loss I might have taken pictures but sadly I didnt.
    Christy
     
  8. sinkorswim

    sinkorswim Out Of The Brooder

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    31
    Apr 12, 2012
    Melbourne,Florida
    No, The only thing I described as fleshy was the color inside the intestine.And actually it wasnt even fleshy,it was white with fleshy tone on the inside.Really pale fleshy.No my hen never passed anything that looked like that.The only thing she ever passed were yolks.My chickens actually sleep/roost up on top of the nesting boxes.Its a flat surface.I kept thinking someone must have laid a soft shelled egg and it was probably consumed before I found it.Since Crows death,with all this reading I now know it may have been a sign that she was having issues.Live and learn...I off to find more necropsy photos to see if I can find anything like it...
    Thanks Christy
     
  9. speckledhen

    speckledhen Intentional Solitude Premium Member

    That's the problem with descriptions, of course. When you said this:


    Quote: ...I sort of pictured that object I posted above.

    You were very strong to even open her up, to tell the truth. It's extremely educational if folks will attempt it, but most just do not. You did, so kudos! The simple truth is that we don't always know 100% what the problems were unless the state vet does a real necropsy with lab report. When I decide to open up a bird because I have questions about the cause of death (sometimes, we just know what the issue was and don't go to the trouble), I look at the reproductive organs as well as heart and liver and not usually much else. The liver tells many stories and there are numerous photos online of what a liver will look like if the issue was this or that, etc. Every liver in every hen we necropsied was perfectly robust and healthy. Had one pullet who died of a heart defect (one chamber of the heart basically imploded as she came into lay), but most all other hens have died from the usual reproductive ailments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  10. sinkorswim

    sinkorswim Out Of The Brooder

    91
    1
    31
    Apr 12, 2012
    Melbourne,Florida
    I thank you.The 2 ideas that were given to me as far as diagnosis was Vent Gleet and Oviduct infection neither of which I had delt with before.The problem was is the treatment for both canceled each other out.In hind sight it seems both were probably correct.

    I have enough knowledge (or lack there of) to drive me to know exactly what happened to my Crow,Making the decision to put her to sleep extremely difficult for me.I didn't know what I was dealing with,so I didn't know if it was something she could recover from.She prolapsed and I knew she could recover from that but each time she continued to strain,she started to bleed heavily.I am a certified Euthanasia Technician but I don't have access to sodium phenobarbital,the only other way I knew was ether.I breed and raise zebra finch and gouldian finch.To humanely euthanize them you put ether on a rag and place them in a small box.I didn't have enough ether or a box, for a bird her size.I had to improvise.

    It tore me up to that but I had to do the necropsy,I had to know.I have a sister to her,I have 6 other chickens,the same age, that came from the same hatchery at the same time.I also have 7 teenagers that came from the same place.I need to know if its contagious or what to look for in other birds.So far what I have discovered is with the EYP if I could have drained the fluid she would still be alive and may have had a chance to fight,I also will probably encounter this again.

    Although I have read this is from hatcheries it is not clear how.Over breeding,but how?Maybe that is not known.I guess it doesn't matter but when you live in city limits,you have to have a sexed chick-you just are not allowed a rooster.So that leads you to someone who sells hatchery chicks.Since none of us can have roosters it again leads us back to hatcheries.And since I am disabled and don't drive its really hard to convince someone to drive an hour out in the country and allow me to bring home chickens in their car.(I don't see the problem with that.I used to live in Michigan I have seen ponies and goats transported in cars so a chicken is no big deal.Ha.Ha,Ha!)
    Thank you,
    Christy
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012

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