Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[hogster160]

Here is a pic of her eyes no swelling or discharge, it's almost like the pupil is bleeding into the color part.

I also have another BA whose eyes look black as in all black, is that normal?

Thanks

Deb

 

[pysankigirl]

I am sorry to tell you that this does sound like Mareks when combined with the wonky pupil.. If you want to know for sure, there is a link the lovely people here gave me a few pages back to the Texas A&M testing people for a blood test. I think it ended up being about 25$ test itself and 25$ shipping (with ice packs)

 

[Haunted55]

Hi. Still battling the ghost? A few months ago, I lost 2 chicks to cocci. It happened so fast. The rest are good. 2 living next door and 7 living at the barn-finally started having their freedom!

Lol, yeah but the meatie I thought had Marek's turned out to just have a broken leg, poor girl. Sad for her but this gives me a bit of hope! Maybe the cold last Winter did kick it back some.

 

[Haunted55]

Here is a pic of her eyes no swelling or discharge, it's almost like the pupil is bleeding into the color part.



I also have another BA whose eyes look black as in all black, is that normal?

Thanks

Deb

I have to agree with Pysankigirl, that it does look like Marek's, but let's get some more info please.

Okay...are both of the eyes like this? Have they always been like this or is this something new? The curled toes you mentioned in a previous post, are they rigid, or can you make them open out? If you handle that foot does she show signs she can feel you touching it? Was this an 'overnight' thing or had she been showing any symptoms before going down? I'm sure I'll be driving you crazy with more questions, but right now, that's a start. By the way...ya done good with the information!!!

My first concern is the vitamins she is getting. I would stop the poly-vi-sol right now. She doesn't need it, not if you are giving here a Super B Complex vitamin everday. I also wonder why you are giving her the calcium with D. Is she having a laying problem? Have you checked her for being eggbound? I'm not knocking, just asking. I've been where you are and was willing to try everything and anything. If there is no issue with being eggbound, you can stop the calcium as well. The biggies for paralysis, if it is a vitamin deficiency and even if it's not, are the Bs and the C in the Complex. The rest of the needs should be coming from the diet she is eating and some vitamins are fat soluble and can cause issues, including paralysis in high doses. This is why I said stop the poly. The calcium isn't going to do much good either unless there is a laying problem. A day or two won't hurt, but any more than that, where she isn't moving around much right now, could cause calcification in the joints making the walking situation worse. As I said, ya done good! You did something very proactive to help your bird and have done her no harm. Right now though, I would stop the extras and save them for later. the only other thing I can think of to add is a good probiotic for poultry. I use a human one I get from my pharmacy called FloraGen3. You'd have to ask as it has to be in the fridge. One capsule opened and sprinkled on the feed once a day. This stuff is hardcore and will get the gut up and running in as little as 2 days. Cost ranges from 13-15 dollars for a 30 day supply. You will not have to give it that long and it has a long life if kept cold. If you can't get it or don't want the expense, even the Sav-A-Chick probiotic will work. What dosage on the B Complex are you giving? Have you separated her from the rest, or is she still in with the rest?

Lol, I warned you about the questions.....If this is a vitamin deficiency, it didn't happen overnight, nor will it be 'cured' overnight. I would continue with the B Complex for a couple of weeks, even if she seems to be 100% better in a few days. Where these vites are water soluble, they don't stay with the body for long. You need to have them available for her for a while so her body can use them to fix whatever it is that went wrong. Have you thought about changing her feed? Sometimes the feed we get can be questionable, maybe something happened and one of the vitamins or salts, or whatever, wasn't put into the feed or in the wrong amounts. It's usually one of the first things I do before even adding the vitamins.

Now the Marek's....even if this does turn out to be Marek's, it's not the end of the world. A lot of us here on BYC have it in our flocks and have happy birds running around, laying everyday, until they don't. In some ways, I think we are the lucky ones. We know that everyday with one of our affected birds is a gift and make sure that while they are with us, they have a great life. I now have some that are over a year old. Now as already brought up, you can have a blood test done and know for sure. This is worth it to most of us as it doesn't require the death of a bird for a necropsy to be done.
http://tvmdl.tamu.edu/tests_service...sease-(PCR)&unit_id=1187&unit_effdt=02-JUN-10

 

[hogster160]

I have to agree with Pysankigirl, that it does look like Marek's, but let's get some more info please.

Okay...are both of the eyes like this? Yes both eyes.

Have they always been like this or is this something new? This is something new. My birds always sit on my lap and get up close and personal, I am always looking at them in the eyes. Haven't seen this before.

The curled toes you mentioned in a previous post, are they rigid, or can you make them open out? I can open them, bend them.

If you handle that foot does she show signs she can feel you touching it? Some...sometimes she grips my fingers/hand/arm, other times no gripping. Most times she compensates with the use of her wings as well. Almost like shes confused as to why she feels off balance.

Was this an 'overnight' thing or had she been showing any symptoms before going down? She was fine the day and night before, bedded down like normal up on her roost. Next morning shes on the coop floor in a little nest she made.

I'm sure I'll be driving you crazy with more questions, but right now, that's a start. By the way...ya done good with the information!!!

My first concern is the vitamins she is getting. I would stop the poly-vi-sol right now. She doesn't need it, not if you are giving here a Super B Complex vitamin everday. I also wonder why you are giving her the calcium with D. I will stop the poly, she doesn't like it anyway lol. I was trying to rule out Rickets. Her legs work, just not like she or I wants them to. I thought maybe if she had soft bones, they might work the way they are. I will give only the vit B Complex.

Is she having a laying problem? She is POL. So no eggs yet from her.

Have you checked her for being eggbound? I actually did check, since she is very red in the comb/wattle and has been doing the squat for over a month. I did not feel any lumps in the hip/vent area. Nor did I feel any lumps on her body.

I'm not knocking, just asking. I've been where you are and was willing to try everything and anything. If there is no issue with being eggbound, you can stop the calcium as well. The biggies for paralysis, if it is a vitamin deficiency and even if it's not, are the Bs and the C in the Complex. The rest of the needs should be coming from the diet she is eating and some vitamins are fat soluble and can cause issues, including paralysis in high doses. This is why I said stop the poly. The calcium isn't going to do much good either unless there is a laying problem. A day or two won't hurt, but any more than that, where she isn't moving around much right now, could cause calcification in the joints making the walking situation worse. As I said, ya done good! You did something very proactive to help your bird and have done her no harm. Right now though, I would stop the extras and save them for later. the only other thing I can think of to add is a good probiotic for poultry. I use a human one I get from my pharmacy called FloraGen3. You'd have to ask as it has to be in the fridge. One capsule opened and sprinkled on the feed once a day. This stuff is hardcore and will get the gut up and running in as little as 2 days. Cost ranges from 13-15 dollars for a 30 day supply. You will not have to give it that long and it has a long life if kept cold. If you can't get it or don't want the expense, even the Sav-A-Chick probiotic will work. What dosage on the B Complex are you giving? Have you separated her from the rest, or is she still in with the rest? I will check with the pharmacy tomorrow and see about getting the FloraGen2. I had a small packet of save a chick that I was giving her as well, altho I gave the last of it in her water this morning. The dosage is:

1 soft gel: B1 50 mg, b2 50 mg, b3 50 mg, b6 50 mg, Folate 400 ,mcg, b12 50 mcg, biotin 50 mcg, b5 50 mg, choline 50 mcg, Inositol and paba 50 mcg I don't see any vitamin C listed. What dosage should I pick up while at the pharmacy tomorrow? Since this is water soluble, she gets one with each meal so 3 a day.

Lol, I warned you about the questions.....If this is a vitamin deficiency, it didn't happen overnight, nor will it be 'cured' overnight. I would continue with the B Complex for a couple of weeks, even if she seems to be 100% better in a few days. Where these vites are water soluble, they don't stay with the body for long. You need to have them available for her for a while so her body can use them to fix whatever it is that went wrong. Have you thought about changing her feed? I can change her feed. Do I change just her or for all of the birds? I do FF 2xs per day. I had changed how I was feeding them. Trying to get them to forage more and I put them down to 1x per day for 3 weeks. When I got 3 soft eggs (all are being fed a mix of grower/layer atm and are new layers.), I went back to 2xs. I figured they needed it. I always have oyster shell available and crushed egg shell as some can't make up their minds which one they like.

Sometimes the feed we get can be questionable, maybe something happened and one of the vitamins or salts, or whatever, wasn't put into the feed or in the wrong amounts. It's usually one of the first things I do before even adding the vitamins.

Now the Marek's....even if this does turn out to be Marek's, it's not the end of the world. A lot of us here on BYC have it in our flocks and have happy birds running around, laying everyday, until they don't. In some ways, I think we are the lucky ones. We know that everyday with one of our affected birds is a gift and make sure that while they are with us, they have a great life. I now have some that are over a year old. Now as already brought up, you can have a blood test done and know for sure. This is worth it to most of us as it doesn't require the death of a bird for a necropsy to be done.
http://tvmdl.tamu.edu/tests_service...sease-(PCR)&unit_id=1187&unit_effdt=02-JUN-10

I have read up on getting chickens for the last year and a half. Then I finally get them. They have a huge coop and yard. They have become my children. Something that actually brought me and my children more closer. My youngest is 24 and oldest is 30, they all come and we go sit with the girls. Grand babies too. This just sucks! Nothing can be easy lol. I always have to do things the hard way. They have actually only been outside for a month since the 19th of May. They were in their coop for a week and a day. On the 1st of June was their day of freedom. But they were outside in a small 20 x 10 pen for a couple of weeks and then back to the garage for night time. Any way, thanks for listening and a very big thanks for all the questions. Got me thinking lol. I need to start a diary, with all problems and affecting which bird.

Thanks!

Deb

 

[Haunted55]

The eye symptoms make me believe this is Marek's. I'm sorry. It has been my experience when the occular form of this disease shows up, death isn't far behind. I urge you to either arrange to have a necropsy done on this bird when she passes or contact the people below to have blood testing done now. Even though I am pretty sure this is Marek's and not Lymphoid Leukosis, you will want to know what else may be going on in the bird and possibly the rest of your flock.

http://agr.wa.gov/FoodAnimal/AnimalHealth/statevets.aspx
http://tvmdl.tamu.edu/tests_service...sease-(PCR)&unit_id=1187&unit_effdt=02-JUN-10

Close your flock, nothing in and definitely nothing out. Please keep in mind that you have become a carrier of this disease. Clothing, hair, shoes, vehicle, you name it, you got it and you could be helping to spread this to other's birds when you go to the grain store, etc.. Now would be a good time to start keeping a journal. Write down everything you know, can remember, etc., about where the birds came from, medications, vaccinations, anything and everything. It may seem to be a waste of time now, but later on you will find this to be invaluable if you are going to continue keeping birds.

I am assuming that all of these birds were housed together and that none of them were vaccinated for Marek's as you didn't mention that in your first posting. Where this bird who is showing signs of the disease is older, not a chick, I would say it has been introduced to your flock recently and not at hatch. The incubation time for Marek's is 4 - 12 weeks. This is your window to figure out how and when. New birds? Equipment bought at a yardsale or auction? Visitors? Even a trip to the feed store or someone near your home having it their flock. It won't change the exposure of your flock, but may help with understanding the virulence of the strain you have now. You may never see another bird with symptoms, although that is rare, or you may find that it is extremely aggresive and could take most of your flock. There is no cure as you probably know, but there is supportive care. the FF is a good thing and I don't think a change of feed is going to help now. I would continue as you have been with that. I would say that rather than just a B Complex, you switch to a Super B Complex tablet crushed and added to their water. I get mine at WalMart, the Spring Valley brand and they haven't let me down yet. The trick with the Bs is to give a steady dosing of them. By giving them in the water, the birds are continually getting them into themselves, while giving it to them twice a day is just twice a day treatment. The Bs aren't kept in the body of an active chicken for long and water delivery is a better choice. 1 Super B complex to 1 gallon of water in your active birds.

 

[hogster160]

We got the first 9 chicks as day olds from a hatchery on jan 14, 2013. They were not vaccinated. 4 weeks later we got 6 more from Rural king. They were not vaccinated. They were kept in separate brooder for 12 weeks or so in different areas of the house. We had no deaths or illnesses. Around 6 weeks ago we put both brooder a into the garage, and started putting them outside during the day in side by side runs. Then out to the coop with a divider until the little girls caught up in size. But free range all together.

My neighbor had chickens years ago, maybe 6-8, he lost some to predators, and the others just died and I don't think they were laying yet. He told me they died because no one told him they needed oyster shell. We are obviously both new to chickens. I'm gonna talk with him today and find out what happened. How old they were when they died. I'm thinking it was probably MD. They have only been outside maybe 8 weeks or so.

We bought everything new for the chicks. No yard sales, auctions etc. but of course I went to buy the supplies, so I could have picked it up there and brought it home with me. I have chicken clothes and shoes already, but I have only been doing that since I read about it here. So maybe feb or march.

So how do I not spread this? I need to go get more feed and am now afraid to leave my house. If I have it in my car how do I not spread it? How do I not take it with me?

I have been told by Indiana byc people that I can take them to Purdue and they can cull and do the necropsy. I think I am going to do that. I don't want them to suffer, nor do I have the time to babysit a paralyzed chicken. That's really no life IMHO. The two with the eye thing will probably go as well. I am calling Purdue today, and will let everyone know what they say. Hopefully today or early next week.

Thank you so much for you help. It is very much appreciated.

Deb

 

[Haunted55]

Washing and changing clothes before going to the fed store, I also have a can of Lysol spray in my truck and spray my shoes before going in and after coming out. Keeping the inside of the vehicle vacummed is a must. Another thing you can do is save all of the plastic grocery bags that you get and use them over your shoes while in the coop. Even though you now have chicken clothes and shoes, you still want to keep down what you bring into your house as much as possible. Another issue with the chance of spread is letting the chickens free range in your yard. I do it as well but I am also aware that I risk spreading it this way. I have no close neighbors so the possibility of airbourne isn't the issue, what is is tracking the feces that they will leave where ever they happen to go. If you can keep them out of your normal routes of travel to your house, car, etc., you may avoid some of the danger from this.

 

[hogster160]

Washing and changing clothes before going to the fed store, I also have a can of Lysol spray in my truck and spray my shoes before going in and after coming out. Keeping the inside of the vehicle vacummed is a must. Another thing you can do is save all of the plastic grocery bags that you get and use them over your shoes while in the coop. Even though you now have chicken clothes and shoes, you still want to keep down what you bring into your house as much as possible. Another issue with the chance of spread is letting the chickens free range in your yard. I do it as well but I am also aware that I risk spreading it this way. I have no close neighbors so the possibility of airbourne isn't the issue, what is is tracking the feces that they will leave where ever they happen to go. If you can keep them out of your normal routes of travel to your house, car, etc., you may avoid some of the danger from this.

They are on the side of my yard, in a totally fenced in area 40' x 120 or so feet 6' high for most of it 4' for the last 50' or so. Only one gate, in front. I haven't seen any other animals in there, even my outside cat doesn't go in there. We really only just cut the grass there and not use that part of our yard. My garden is there. Will any of this cause a problem to my food supply? I don't sell my food or give it away. I can and freeze it for our use only.

My neighbor down the road about 1/2 mile has chickens too. I spoke with her several months ago, she said she has 200-250 birds. I have never seen that many birds there, maybe 50. I saw a couple of birds limping, and thought bumble foot. She said birds die, they get replaced. Now I'm thinking she probably has it in her flock. Shes an old lady, maybe 85 or so. I'm afraid to go to her place and talk with her. I changed my clothes when I came home, but who knows, I probably brought it home with me. We also got manure from her last fall to put into our garden. Did I contaminate my yard before I even had chickens?

I will vacuum out my truck before I leave today, in freshly washed clothes, with bags on my feet. People are gonna look at me funny, but oh well. I need to get some lysol and will clean my house and spray it down. I still have a chicken in the house, in a crate, so I will need to be vigilant from this point forward.

I'm not sure I will continue with chickens when all is said and done. If my neighbor has it in her flock as well, my chances of raising chickens just fell to about 0% I'm thinking. This just really really sucks.

Deb

 

[pysankigirl]

They are on the side of my yard, in a totally fenced in area 40' x 120 or so feet 6' high for most of it 4' for the last 50' or so. Only one gate, in front. I haven't seen any other animals in there, even my outside cat doesn't go in there. We really only just cut the grass there and not use that part of our yard. My garden is there. Will any of this cause a problem to my food supply? I don't sell my food or give it away. I can and freeze it for our use only.

My neighbor down the road about 1/2 mile has chickens too. I spoke with her several months ago, she said she has 200-250 birds. I have never seen that many birds there, maybe 50. I saw a couple of birds limping, and thought bumble foot. She said birds die, they get replaced. Now I'm thinking she probably has it in her flock. Shes an old lady, maybe 85 or so. I'm afraid to go to her place and talk with her. I changed my clothes when I came home, but who knows, I probably brought it home with me. We also got manure from her last fall to put into our garden. Did I contaminate my yard before I even had chickens?

I will vacuum out my truck before I leave today, in freshly washed clothes, with bags on my feet. People are gonna look at me funny, but oh well. I need to get some lysol and will clean my house and spray it down. I still have a chicken in the house, in a crate, so I will need to be vigilant from this point forward.

I'm not sure I will continue with chickens when all is said and done. If my neighbor has it in her flock as well, my chances of raising chickens just fell to about 0% I'm thinking. This just really really sucks.

Deb

So many people have chicken diseases and have no idea what they have. The fact that you are trying to figure it out and deal with it in a responsible way puts you head and shoulders above so many. I remember a while ago chatting with a 4-h mom who was really casual about her daughter's chickens dieing of unknown causes...they are replaceable to so many people so they don't find out WHY. And these chickens were being SHOWN. scares the crap out of me.

I wish I could reach through the computer and give you a great big hug.