Official LGD Owners Thread!

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

And, yeah...I said happier. I know you're conditioned to think that a wary dog is a miserable dog and that only highly-socialized, easy-going dogs can be happy...but it's just not true. These dogs are happy because they're doing what they've been bred to do over the course of literally thousands of years, and they derive a GREAT DEAL of pleasure in running things off. They get really excited to see something turn and go the other way, and it's not just relief.. It's excitement.. Like watching a dog get really excited when you praise it for learning a new trick.

Well now i feel we are getting somewhere, we have found that the other person was agreeing somewhat, and we have some of the same ideas.

I personally, am NOT a trainer who is conditioned to think that any dog higly socilized and friendly is what is correct, as I said before I look at a dog for what dog they are. On the contrary if you knew my own working dogs you'd also realize that I am very very familiar with a WORKING dog temperament. Both GSD's (which you may or may not have ever encountered the correct temperament in one) and also working Karelian Bear Dogs, Russo-European Laikas and both East and West Siberian Laikas. The latter breeds I have mentioned are not the norm of a dog, in the same way you consider the LGD not to be like other dogs. Even though they aren't LGD's they are highly specilaized dogs for their breed traits and instinctual standards and most people who have them will say the same thing: "these are not like any dog i have ever owned".

What I'm trying to say is this: I know dogs, not just regular run of the mill labs, gsd, goldens, cockers, what-have-you. I have dealt with, studied and trained, re-conditioned and been around many more breeds of dogs than most people. Many of the breeds i have worked with most are not and would never be considered regular, average or nomral for what Americans think a dog is.

That is why I can do what I accomplish what i do with the aggression that i deal with. Because i have a rounded understanding of dogs, not just a narrow point of view that every dog's perfect temperament should be Golden Retriever-esque. Its just not true. My own working GSD is a REAL working dog. Not a GSD in a Poodles temperament. He's not the kind of dog that should go or would work out in a pet home with a regular family. His temperament as a GSD is intact and full. he's truely a protection dog. He watches and will neutralize threats to me or my property. Including the protection of any other animals I own, because his genetics (and my training to support his genetics) have told him that is how he should behave.

I enjoy a working dog's temperament and I don't feel threatened by a LGD temperament nor did it hurt my feelngs when one i have had worked with doens't "like" me LOL I don't expect it. Would be odd for a Anatolian or other mixed LGD I've worked with to greet me like im a long lost friend.

So really I think you and I speak relatively the same language. I was thinking a while ago that I would probably really enjoy a face to face conversation with you because we are both very passionate and learned about our respective (and very similar) passions.​

 

[cmjust0]

I agree, and was thinking the same thing.....and I figure we're both probably as stubborn as some of the dogs we're talking about.

I think, too, that it's hard to describe dogs like these.. In talking to his breeder originally and asking questions, I got a lot of "Ummm, well... Kinda, but not exactly.." type responses. I thought it odd at the time, but knew her to be a thoughtful, intelligent lady with a passion for the breed. I took it as being that they're just sorta hard to describe. These days, when talking about them, I find myself saying the same things..

Conversations like this...

Q: "So, he stays right in with the herd, huh?"
A: "Um...well, not really. He stays where he can hear them, at least, but he'll follow them around sometimes."
Q: "Bet he loves his goats though, right?"
A: "Um...well, I dunno. He likes them, but there's no real bond there like with some other dogs."
Q: "So he's just territorial then?"
A: "Well...you might say that, but not exactly...."

By which point you can imagine peoples' befuddlement about why we know him to be such a tremendous LGD..

And then you say something like "He does different barks depending on the situation..." and they're like... ".....wha?....."

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
*gasp* Me, stubborn?!? I'm so offended

P.S. My husband says I shouldn't be surprised Im accused of stubbornness

 

[yoker]

Quote:
Cute!!!

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

until we got an LGD, I had no clue how much different they were than other dogs.

That's the one thing people don't seem to understand
They are NOT like any other dogs (Except when it come to being CUTE)

 

[Promiselandfarm]

Oh blue eyes ours don't have the blue eyes that is pretty. Is that usually for them? I know they seem very similar to the Pyrenees in other ways do they also have the double dew claws?

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
Interesting that you'd say "head down".. According to my research into fear aggression, a dog with its head and tail held low indicates anxiety or fear. The fact that your dog was alert with her head down would seem to indicate some level of fear aggression, given that she didn't move away..
Also interesting to note is that Border Collies are getting a really bad reputation for fear aggression these days. It's popping up more and more.

Thing is, though...in my opinion, most LGDs possess a good deal of fear aggression. Without fear aggression, the dog would either become submissive or shy away from threats altogether -- something NO livestock guardian should ever do.

Again, exceptions to every rule.....

The dog is a he, his tail wasn't down and he uses the same head down gaze when taunting and playing with my female. This is how he moves in on prey, for play, and for concentrating on a threat. I haven't seen any fear in this dog yet. Inquisitive, adventurous, rowdy, playful, looking for something to get into at all times...this is the dog. I've noticed the same head down gaze from Border Collies that are working sheep.

My Lab/GP cross, on the other hand, will actually stalk and point at prey(just like a bird dog). When faced with a threat her head is up, hair is up, tail is up. The BC mix? He stalks with head down, he plays with head down, he approaches a threat with head down and a steady gaze...absolutely silent, no barking. I don't think this dog knows the meaning of anxiety!

He's the only dog I've ever had that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, could fend for himself in the wild. He'll eat anything, can kill most anything his size or smaller, has little doggy smell, swift and lethal on the kill, silent on the hunt and can snatch a songbird out of the air.

Different dogs, different moves~not necessarily fear aggression, just their own style.

 

[Barred Rocks forever]

you have seen him hunt im guessing ?

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Oh blue eyes ours don't have the blue eyes that is pretty. Is that usually for them?

They were only blue for a while.
She was 8 weeks old in the pic.
I hoped they would stay that way.
Normal color for a Maremma is an amber color, although Brandy has lighter colored eyes than the rest of my dogs.​

 

[walkswithdog]

Predators don't engage a fear aggression response - they PISS Off the dog. If there are multiple Pyrs, I have had Pyrs that will give chase. A lone Pyr tends not to. Dogs know predator from invading prey animals. They OBJECT. And they object in NEW territory, even with a new flock. Territory is whatever size of area the LGD THINKS it should control. Some have MUCH bigger circles than others. Our Penne had a nine acre circle and she'd take off ticked if the coyotes breached the ridge, the other dog would stay with the goats. When they were gone she'd leap the fence and come home.

I agree many a "failed livestock dog" was eating something dead. Or did try to "drive the flock away" from danger and an idiot owner misinterpets the act. Since I foster those failed dogs routinely - I find most are truly stock sound and well balanced, and just needs someone who understands them better. If I hadn't known better I'd have thought GNocchi was a failure when she disciplined an aggressive turkey hen for attacking others and pulled some of her feathers out.

Most of the "LGDS" are THIS way stuff is pure myth and generalization, some of it to make people feel good about keeping dogs as tools. For instance I get told all the time they "prefer" to be outdoors, can't be trained to, or enjoy indoors once they've been reared in the field and unsocialized. Having taken six ex-LGDs and turned them into pet and ranch dogs, living in and loving indoors, as well as happy to guard stock when needed, I can say, most take to living indoors fine, if they're trained by someone they trust. I had one, who felt the need after getting used to the house, to go out if she heard coyotes and stay out til they left, but then she came in again. That was okay too. So far, the "stock bonded" LGD that cannot be retrained, I haven't met. Though right now I have a litter of Pyr mixes who are only nine weeks old and they KNOW they're house puppies, even if an idiot let them be born uncared for under a deck and half the litter died of exposure, and their mother's malnourishment.

And another litter coming in a two weeks... mom and her 4 week old pups.

After that I should be back into recycling LGDS, since in TN they're being abandoned in the hundreds a month right now. I'm still getting four to six requests for foster and evaluation a week. Sigh.

I love LGDs, I'll never be without them again, and as you can see, I'm busily saving all of them I can. But I do see all the HUMAN failures of living with LGDS. People "believe" and WRITE things that aren't true, based on what they "believe" and want to believe, and what they understand.

Dogs don't attack predators out of fear aggression. Not every dog that lives safely with stock is stock bonded. Most aren't. They just do what they understand - teach them to understand something new and they are happy with that. Dogs understand the danger of predators, they ARE predators. That's why they also defend against strange dogs. Fear aggressive dogs are INEFFECTIVE guardians, they tend to group and cower, not attack. Fear aggressive dogs have to be CORNERED to attack. Territory is over rated as a process for LGDs or property guards. Dogs tend to have a "defensive" circle. This they defend with their lives and it varies between individuals. Because dogs are individuals.

Since I'm constantly introducing the next foster dog, to existing foster dogs and my existing pack, the "stranger danger" thing I get to see at least once a month, sometimes more. The Pyrs and the Pyr-Kuvasc, I've had here all react poorly to the whole new dog thing. Because it is a strange, possibly predatory animal/s. They need a longer adjustment period than typical pet bred dogs. But they come around. But however new they are here - they defend some of the property - and everything in it, from the moment they're fed here. Whether they're in the kennel, the house or in with the goats and chickens. I used to work a training kennel and the animal shelter, I've seen a LOT of fear aggression - it is never functional - because a dog in that kind of fear is not thinking. I've also seen a lot of defense of self, defense of territory and defense of others - be they stock, other dogs in the pack, the humans. It's all slightly different and usually lumped under "stock bonded" or "territorial" and it's not often all that accurate when applied to individuals. Since I'm always working new dogs and rarely puppies, I have to be aware of each dog, and it's manner of thinking/reacting. After ten, so far, no two are alike.

Even the mother/daughter pair, different as night and day. Penne had a huge defensive circle, Gnocchi watched the flock itself. Penne was in charge of all dog behavior on the property and Gnocchi took charge of the behavior of goats and poultry. Both wanted to sleep in the house and lay on the couch once they understood that it was safe to do so. Both now live indoors, though Penne is still day-goat-guard and kid-goat-guard, otherwise she sleeps indoors with her children.

I love them. I wish more people saw them as capable of much more than their stereotype, and some of the BS actual MYTH, running around.