Official LGD Owners Thread!

[Promiselandfarm]

No aggression....

... all cuteness at this point in their life

 

[cmjust0]

I love 'Cleopatra' eye markings.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

No I don't think you are totally misinformed. I do think you make a lot of generalizations about dogs and you are somewhat misinformed. I do have experience with LGD's though not as much as with other breeds, probably the same ratio as people own LGD's that dont.

Yes some breeds are naturally more wary than others. I also take dogs on a case by case basis. Once you know breed, sex, and age you then can consider behavior to be personalitly or environmentally specific. All tools in true decipherment of a dogs behavior and temperament.

I also do laugh at some of the things you said, not sure if you are talented funny person or being sarastic with me. So for the sake of no arguing I'll assume you're just attempting to be funny. NO I don't want to be mauled by a dog, and you are wrong about confident aggression versus fear aggression. But its obvious from what you have stated that you dont' have the experience to really understand what you're saying. I speak about dogs as dogs, i can get specific with breeds however aggression is aggression no matter if we are talking chihuahua or LGD. Its the circumstaces that make the aggression slightly different, not a whole lot but slightly. IF the end result is going to be an aggressive attack and not mere display then we have the options of labeling it the many different types of aggression to explain the reaction.

I have seen LGD's that did their job without true fear, wary behavior, guarding behavior, yes. But the dogs weren't fearful of other dogs, people or other animals. They did their job because genetics told them to and that was supported by training from the clients. That is a stable dog, not one that works out of geniune fear but one that works from a stable thinking brain. A safer dog.

This is an interesting thread and I have really enjoyed the discussions. I hope we can continue, even if we don't agree.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
I'm not sure what to make of that sentence, exactly, but I'm taking from it that you don't own LGDs..

Based on some of the generalizations you've made about LGDs using your experience with other dogs, that's more or less what I suspected.

Yes some breeds are naturally more wary than others.

That's a huge understatement.

I also take dogs on a case by case basis. Once you know breed, sex, and age you then can consider behavior to be personalitly or environmentally specific. All tools in true decipherment of a dogs behavior and temperament.

Perhaps, provided that you have an understanding of the breed.

Frankly, you've not yet demonstrated that understanding in regard to LGDs.

I also do laugh at some of the things you said, not sure if you are talented funny person or being sarastic with me. So for the sake of no arguing I'll assume you're just attempting to be funny. NO I don't want to be mauled by a dog, and you are wrong about confident aggression versus fear aggression. But its obvious from what you have stated that you dont' have the experience to really understand what you're saying.

...says the person who's never owned an LGD to the person who does, in the "Official LGD Owners Thread"...

How's that for irony?!?

I speak about dogs as dogs, i can get specific with breeds however aggression is aggression no matter if we are talking chihuahua or LGD. Its the circumstaces that make the aggression slightly different, not a whole lot but slightly. IF the end result is going to be an aggressive attack and not mere display then we have the options of labeling it the many different types of aggression to explain the reaction.

The part in bold...that's the root of the problem here, in my opinion.

I spent my whole life around dogs, but until we got an LGD, I had no clue how much different they were than other dogs.

I have seen LGD's that did their job without true fear, wary behavior, guarding behavior, yes. But the dogs weren't fearful of other dogs, people or other animals.

Funny you would say that.. My dad came to visit once and Ivan wanted him gone. Displayed the same type of aggression toward my dad as he had toward me in the first days he was here. When I explained to my dad that Ivan was actually terrified of him, my dad's reaction was "Well...ya coulda fooled me!"

Yeah...that's the point.

I've seen that reaction more than once out of folks. If you could see the fear in the dog, there would be no point...they're bred to mask the fear.

I understand that you don't get that, but...oh well. What else can I do, ya know?!?

They did their job because genetics told them to and that was supported by training from the clients. That is a stable dog, not one that works out of geniune fear but one that works from a stable thinking brain. A safer dog.

Genetics told them to do what, exactly? What did their genetics tell them to do?

"Guard" isn't an answer, btw...as you pointed out, there are many different reasons a dog does what a dog does, and you say you can read them and tell what they're doing.. So, what were the genetics telling the dog to do, specifically?

And, btw, if the dog's genetics told it what to do, why exactly did the owners have to train it? Moreover, what did they train it to do?

More interestingly...if the dog was genetically predisposed to do its job, and was stable, and safe...why did you just refer to the owners as CLIENTS after saying that you specialize in aggression issues?!??

I mean...I didn't need to see a dog trainer and you said earlier that my dog was the dangerous, unstable one...

I'm just sayin'..

This is an interesting thread and I have really enjoyed the discussions. I hope we can continue, even if we don't agree.

Me too.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

LOL *sigh* This really is funny.

Funny you would say that.. My dad came to visit once and Ivan wanted him gone. Displayed the same type of aggression toward my dad as he had toward me in the first days he was here. When I explained to my dad that Ivan was actually terrified of him, my dad's reaction was "Well...ya coulda fooled me!"

Yeah...that's the point.

I've seen that reaction more than once out of folks. If you could see the fear in the dog, there would be no point...they're bred to mask the fear.

I understand that you don't get that, but...oh well. What else can I do, ya know?!?

I do get what you're saying. I understand completely. Dogs do have fear reactions on very different levels depending on the dogs temperament. The thing is that Ivan's display was adequate which is what i have been saying since my second post on this thread. MOST people or other animals won't try and see if the dog is bluffing or not, they see aggression and don't care WHERE it comes from, they just realize its not a good idea to proceed LOL. However I and I think most people would rather not have a dog that is truely terrified.

You are completely wrong in that you say a dog is only masking fear if they don't show it. Different types of aggression come from different things in dogs, some aggression is pack drive, some is resource guarding (which can also be considered pack drive in the correct circumstances), some aggression is dominance and some can come from sexual reasons, some aggression is unwaranted because the dog has a scew loose.

Another thing is your dog isn't masking his fear at all. He's showing his far thru aggression. His aggressive displays are due to his fear, not an attempt to hide it. Dogs don't tyr and hide their behavior from people or animals. Dogs show aggression as a means of communication. Your dog is saying keep away, which is what you want and thats fine. If it works great, but I still feel sorry for any dog that freaked out. Its not healthy.

A dog showing a confident kind of aggression is less dangerous because once the dog has neutralized the threat the dog can calm down quickly and de-stress or relax. An unstable dog (not talking about your dog here) will not calm down and will take days sometimes weeks to come out of that fear mode after a really tramatic aggressive encounter. Its so sad. Not what anyone should want in their dog.​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

More interestingly...if the dog was genetically predisposed to do its job, and was stable, and safe...why did you just refer to the owners as CLIENTS after saying that you specialize in aggression issues?!??

I said I specilaize in LOL. Never did i say that was the only thing i get called to do. I often have gotten calls from people wanting some hands on help with simple problems such as house breaking in a pet dog, ect. I don't see how its confusing to you that i have clients that don't necessarily have aggression problems. I'm a trainer who deals with behavior issues, specializing in aggression. Im not silly enough to only take on clients with aggression problems, that wouldn't pay the bills very well.​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Genetics told them to do what, exactly? What did their genetics tell them to do?

"Guard" isn't an answer, btw...as you pointed out, there are many different reasons a dog does what a dog does, and you say you can read them and tell what they're doing.. So, what were the genetics telling the dog to do, specifically?

And, btw, if the dog's genetics told it what to do, why exactly did the owners have to train it? Moreover, what did they train it to do?

Well you should know the answer to that, genetics dictate some of a dogs temperament AKA: insticts. However, training is needed in some areas such as where the clients want the dog to go, what areas are off limits to the dog, ect. You just posted in another thread:

LGDs shouldn't need much training to do their jobs... They should come with everything they need in order to do their jobs, more or less instictually.. Now, lots of people take that to mean "throw them with the stock and forget it," assuming that they'll eventually settle in and be perfect angels -- not so! If your dog is young and inexperienced (which these two obviously are, as babies), chucking them out with no supervision is a recipe for frustration and problems. While they should be pre-wired to guard, they're also gonna be pre-wired to do some other...shall we say...less desireable things

So that is exactly what i was saying, you apparently agree. If you wonder why i was out to a CLIENTS house for a LGD its because more or less the dog was doing its job but the owner had some questions on some unwanted behaviors. Sorry i suppose i should have been exactly specific, seeing how you don't seem to be able to infer more information than is exacty provided to you. My bad.​

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
Yeah, you're right.. I wouldn't really want Ivan's traits in a "regular" dog, either..

But that's not what Ivan is.. That's not what LGDs are in general. LGDs are working dogs...dogs with a specific purpose. They're not "regular" dogs.

And Ivan is a working LGD.

I think that's the fundamental misunderstanding here, and I think it's a direct result of the fact that you do not own a working LGD... That, and the fact that you continue to speak about them in general dog terms as though working with dogs in general qualifies you as an an expert on livestock guardian dogs.

No offense -- and I mean that, seriously -- but if you owned one, you'd realize how naive that is.

You are completely wrong in that you say a dog is only masking fear if they don't show it. Different types of aggression come from different things in dogs, some aggression is pack drive, some is resource guarding (which can also be considered pack drive in the correct circumstances), some aggression is dominance and some can come from sexual reasons, some aggression is unwaranted because the dog has a scew loose.

Another thing is your dog isn't masking his fear at all. He's showing his far thru aggression. His aggressive displays are due to his fear, not an attempt to hide it. Dogs don't tyr and hide their behavior from people or animals. Dogs show aggression as a mans of communication. Your dog is saying keep away, which is what you want and thats fine. If it works great, but I still feel sorry for any dog that freaked out. Its not healthy.

You're absolutely right. I misspoke.

I didn't mean to imply that he thoughtfully calculating "Boy, I sure am scared...but I'm not gonna show it, so I'm gonna act really mean instead!" Of course that's not what it is.. What you said in your correction is essentially what I've been saying all along, though; fear-aggressive dogs are wired to show aggression when threatened. Instead of running away, they run toward...

And, yes, in most dogs that's not at all desirable. In most dogs, it's dangerous. It's not as if I'm oblivious to your viewpoint, and I can certainly understand why someone would enlist the help of a dog trainer if they had a family pet that was fear aggressive.

In an LGD, though...well, they're not family pets. They can be made into family pets, but if they're socialized to the point that nothing threatens them -- neither man nor beast -- and trained out of any innate fear aggression, they're effectively worthless as LGDs.

Surely you can see that??

On a brighter note, I'm glad to see that you've at least accepted that what Ivan's doing displaying is, in fact, fear aggression. As I recall, you thought I was "confused" before.

A dog showing a confident kind of aggression is less dangerous because once the dog has neutralized the threat the dog can calm down quickly and de-stress or relax. An unstable dog (not talking about your dog here) will not calm down and will take days sometimes weeks to come out of that fear mode after a really tramatic aggressive encounter. Its so sad. Not what anyone should want in their dog.

That's not Ivan. You've got the wrong idea here.

If something really, really worries him -- and I mean badly, such as the case with the neighbor's Danes when he was a younger lad -- he might be edgy throughout the night and bark a little more. And, really, that was more the case when he was a pup, all by himself in the barnyard with coyotes yipping all around him..

These days, though.. Well, like when my other neighbor's rottie and boxer showed up, he was right back to tail wagging as soon as they left. Indeed, he looked generally satisfied when they left.

Now, before you go saying "Oh, well that's confidence aggression then!"...it's not. What prompted him to the gate was that he saw these two dogs and got way freaked out. I could hear it in his bark, which is what prompted me to hop up off the couch, grab my boots and a spotlight and GO.

That's perhaps something else with which you're unfamiliar...the different barks of LGDs. Owners know their LGDs barks, and in many cases, so do the livestock..

Anyway, what brought him to the gate was feeling threatened. I could see it in his posture, and I could tell by the way he was acting. He was anxious. The other dogs realized quickly that they'd better move on, so they did. And when they did, as I said...he seemed pretty pumped up and happy.

That shouldn't surprise you either, though.. Reason being, any fear-aggressive dog gets satisfaction out of scaring things off.. As a trainer specializing in aggression, I'm sure you already knew that.. In case you didn't, or for anyone else lurking with popcorn

....the more a fear-aggressive dog "wins" encounters and turns something the other way, the more confident they become in their ability to scare things away...and the "worse" they get. The threat going away is all the positive reinforcement that's needed to encourage the behavior.

From a dog trainer's perspective, it's the same reason you'd never, ever, ever advise a client to try and reassure or soothe a fear-aggressive dog as it's displaying aggression toward strange people. You know as well as I do that doing so only makes them worse.

Thing is, in the case of an LGD...getting "worse" actually means getting better! I know you're really having a hard time wrapping your mind around that as a trainer who specializes in aggressive dogs...but them's the facts. The older they get, and the more things they're able to run off without having to actually fight anything, the happier and more confident and better they get at their jobs.

And, yeah...I said happier. I know you're conditioned to think that a wary dog is a miserable dog and that only highly-socialized, easy-going dogs can be happy...but it's just not true. These dogs are happy because they're doing what they've been bred to do over the course of literally thousands of years, and they derive a GREAT DEAL of pleasure in running things off. They get really excited to see something turn and go the other way, and it's not just relief.. It's excitement.. Like watching a dog get really excited when you praise it for learning a new trick.

You know what I mean, I'm sure, but to really understand how LGDs work....well, you're just gonna have to get one and put it to work. Regardless of what you may think of what I'm saying now, or how you're picturing my dog based on what I've said combined with what you're accustomed to seeing in fear-aggressive basket cases....

Well, look, just go get one and let us know how it goes.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
Well you should know the answer to that, genetics dictate some of a dogs temperament AKA: insticts. However, training is needed in some areas such as where the clients want the dog to go, what areas are off limits to the dog, ect. You just posted in another thread:

LGDs shouldn't need much training to do their jobs... They should come with everything they need in order to do their jobs, more or less instictually.. Now, lots of people take that to mean "throw them with the stock and forget it," assuming that they'll eventually settle in and be perfect angels -- not so! If your dog is young and inexperienced (which these two obviously are, as babies), chucking them out with no supervision is a recipe for frustration and problems. While they should be pre-wired to guard, they're also gonna be pre-wired to do some other...shall we say...less desireable things

So that is exactly what i was saying, you apparently agree.​

I agree!?!

I'm surprised you agree, since everything in that quote ties directly in with what I've been saying here.

Heck, I had to stop myself from shouting HALLELUJAH just then!!

For the record...to anyone reading...keep in mind that there's a HUGE difference between training and correction. If you find yourself training an LGD to guard, get a new LGD. With LGDs, you should only have to correct.

Anything more indicates a dog that's not suitable as an LGD.

ETA: Since I know someone will call me on this...more specifically, you should only have to correct with respect to guardianship. Leash walking, sit, stay...yeah, sure, they'll need to be trained to that. But, again...you shouldn't find yourself training a guard to guard. If so, you've got problems.

If you wonder why i was out to a CLIENTS house for a LGD its because more or less the dog was doing its job but the owner had some questions on some unwanted behaviors. Sorry i suppose i should have been exactly specific, seeing how you don't seem to be able to infer more information than is exacty provided to you. My bad.

I asked because it sorta came off -- to me, at least -- as though you were claiming to have experience training LGDs to guard. I didn't think that sounded quite right, and as it turns out, I was right.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Barred Rocks forever]

I happen to be one of those people with popcorn