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which, I guess, surprises me somewhat (partly that such stock was available for purchase in the first instance! - here in Australia, the broiler companies would be over zealously guarding them to allow this to happen). It would be quite interesting if the growth rate of such stock were compared to that of the final terminal cross.
I had always been under the impression that, due to the much stronger focus on selection for reproductive traits in the female lines, that the growth potential would be significantly lower in these lines (since there is a negative correlation between growth rate and reproductive capacity) - yes, I agree that it would still likely be far superior to the vast majority of DP stock generally available, but still quite inferior to the end product.
However, in reading this through more carefully- it has struck me that the line that is being talked about (in this observarion) is the sire line of the female parental strains. In which case, this would be more heavily selected for growth rate than the dam line of the female parental strain , as the resultant progeny - (ie. the dam to the terminal broiler ) would be expected to have heterosis for egg production. In which case it is really the dam line of the femaler parental strain that is likely to be the rate limiting step with the poorest growth performance (for which I have, to date, been unable to find any growth rate data).
So I would perhaps question as to how similar the four parental strains really are - and the more genetically dissimilar they are, the greater the difficulty in recovering something resembling the final terminal broiler in subsequent generations.
Cheers,
Htul
The females in the pictures I posted are just run of the mill cornish x rock chicks. Nothing special, I used to buy the male by-products for the female line..... not any more. I have to buy 10,000 to be considered legit I guess. At the time I would buy 4,000 at a time... keep what I needed and would sell the rest as day old chicks. However I do not do it anymore. But the thing is, the males from the female line grew like normal broilers... I couldn't even tell they were breeder by-products if I wasn't told... I wouldn't have even known.
There was a few females that did happen to manage to make it in the male bins. Which grew just like their brothers but only smaller. Typical for any cornish cross.
My point is I guess, they lay only about 180-220 eggs per year / hen. This is only possible through a strict feeding program and from what I read, it's only once a day that they are fed. This maintains body weight without them getting too fat or under fed. If they are raised like any other broiler... they will be too big.
I don't think it's as complicated as many make it out to be, there is 6 different lines that go into making one end product. Seems like a lot of waste if your only using one sex from each line. The others (by-products) are contracted with growers for terminal production. A lot of the male lines are used for roasters at 8-9 weeks and the females are used for small fryers 3-3.5 lbs in 6 weeks.
You have the GGP stock, the GP stock, and the Parent stock. The big time companies hold onto and basically lock up their GGP stock. The GP stock and Parent Stock are readily available. GP stock usually runs around $7.00 / chick... and Parent stock around $2.50 / chick. I could buy GP stock if I wanted to get into the business... but it's expensive... money talks in this business. However the GGP stock is what is untouchable.... producers like Tyson own genetic companies that improve these lines all the time. By using 6 different lines, it really keeps it much harder to get back to the pure breed stock.
But the thing with genetics is, it doesn't change... just because they are crosses doesn't mean they are not going to have good meat genetics if bred again to something else. These companies have done the hard work already... no need to get crazy and develop a bunch of new lines from standard pure breeds (unless of course you want to) but a lot of wasted time can be saved with using the standard crosses that are already available. It's very easy to breed for color, and body structure... but meat structure is hard..... it take a lot of time and some luck. But if you use some of these broad breasted cornish rocks... you can save a lot of money and time.
I wouldn't get too carried away with which line they came from or try to figure out how the big guys do it... you will run yourself into a wall, which is why the system is designed the way it is. It's made to be untraceable... which is why 6 lines are used. All six lines have both great meat qualities and average laying abilities. I think the crosses are more to develop the hybrid vigor over 3 generations of breeding.... to make it difficult to track... and to make more money. If you sell just parent stock you can only make so much money... but if you own the Great Grand Parent stock... then sell GP stock and P stock... then your really making good money. There is a lot in there than just genetics... these guys are in it for the money. And if they can produce a better product by using 3 lines they are going to do it.... especially if they can make billions in the process. Companies sell the by-product male or female lines to growers that want them for meat... even if you happened to get one of the chicks you couldn't do much with it... you have 1 our of 6 pieces to the puzzle... so it's not too unrealistic to believe that these companies come off of the parent by-product stock so easily as they have the upper hand.
But overall, egg laying abilities is far more easier to develop than the meat and bone structure. If you start with a few good hens or roosters from cornish x crosses... if you breed them right... and take the time to understand the genetics, you can have a pretty darn good bird in the end. If I can get a bird ready in 9 weeks by breeding my own... than I have solved my problem of buying chicks every year. I don't think it will be that hard, but it will take time.
which, I guess, surprises me somewhat (partly that such stock was available for purchase in the first instance! - here in Australia, the broiler companies would be over zealously guarding them to allow this to happen). It would be quite interesting if the growth rate of such stock were compared to that of the final terminal cross.
I had always been under the impression that, due to the much stronger focus on selection for reproductive traits in the female lines, that the growth potential would be significantly lower in these lines (since there is a negative correlation between growth rate and reproductive capacity) - yes, I agree that it would still likely be far superior to the vast majority of DP stock generally available, but still quite inferior to the end product.
However, in reading this through more carefully- it has struck me that the line that is being talked about (in this observarion) is the sire line of the female parental strains. In which case, this would be more heavily selected for growth rate than the dam line of the female parental strain , as the resultant progeny - (ie. the dam to the terminal broiler ) would be expected to have heterosis for egg production. In which case it is really the dam line of the femaler parental strain that is likely to be the rate limiting step with the poorest growth performance (for which I have, to date, been unable to find any growth rate data).
So I would perhaps question as to how similar the four parental strains really are - and the more genetically dissimilar they are, the greater the difficulty in recovering something resembling the final terminal broiler in subsequent generations.
Cheers,
Htul
The females in the pictures I posted are just run of the mill cornish x rock chicks. Nothing special, I used to buy the male by-products for the female line..... not any more. I have to buy 10,000 to be considered legit I guess. At the time I would buy 4,000 at a time... keep what I needed and would sell the rest as day old chicks. However I do not do it anymore. But the thing is, the males from the female line grew like normal broilers... I couldn't even tell they were breeder by-products if I wasn't told... I wouldn't have even known.
There was a few females that did happen to manage to make it in the male bins. Which grew just like their brothers but only smaller. Typical for any cornish cross.
My point is I guess, they lay only about 180-220 eggs per year / hen. This is only possible through a strict feeding program and from what I read, it's only once a day that they are fed. This maintains body weight without them getting too fat or under fed. If they are raised like any other broiler... they will be too big.
I don't think it's as complicated as many make it out to be, there is 6 different lines that go into making one end product. Seems like a lot of waste if your only using one sex from each line. The others (by-products) are contracted with growers for terminal production. A lot of the male lines are used for roasters at 8-9 weeks and the females are used for small fryers 3-3.5 lbs in 6 weeks.
You have the GGP stock, the GP stock, and the Parent stock. The big time companies hold onto and basically lock up their GGP stock. The GP stock and Parent Stock are readily available. GP stock usually runs around $7.00 / chick... and Parent stock around $2.50 / chick. I could buy GP stock if I wanted to get into the business... but it's expensive... money talks in this business. However the GGP stock is what is untouchable.... producers like Tyson own genetic companies that improve these lines all the time. By using 6 different lines, it really keeps it much harder to get back to the pure breed stock.
But the thing with genetics is, it doesn't change... just because they are crosses doesn't mean they are not going to have good meat genetics if bred again to something else. These companies have done the hard work already... no need to get crazy and develop a bunch of new lines from standard pure breeds (unless of course you want to) but a lot of wasted time can be saved with using the standard crosses that are already available. It's very easy to breed for color, and body structure... but meat structure is hard..... it take a lot of time and some luck. But if you use some of these broad breasted cornish rocks... you can save a lot of money and time.
I wouldn't get too carried away with which line they came from or try to figure out how the big guys do it... you will run yourself into a wall, which is why the system is designed the way it is. It's made to be untraceable... which is why 6 lines are used. All six lines have both great meat qualities and average laying abilities. I think the crosses are more to develop the hybrid vigor over 3 generations of breeding.... to make it difficult to track... and to make more money. If you sell just parent stock you can only make so much money... but if you own the Great Grand Parent stock... then sell GP stock and P stock... then your really making good money. There is a lot in there than just genetics... these guys are in it for the money. And if they can produce a better product by using 3 lines they are going to do it.... especially if they can make billions in the process. Companies sell the by-product male or female lines to growers that want them for meat... even if you happened to get one of the chicks you couldn't do much with it... you have 1 our of 6 pieces to the puzzle... so it's not too unrealistic to believe that these companies come off of the parent by-product stock so easily as they have the upper hand.
But overall, egg laying abilities is far more easier to develop than the meat and bone structure. If you start with a few good hens or roosters from cornish x crosses... if you breed them right... and take the time to understand the genetics, you can have a pretty darn good bird in the end. If I can get a bird ready in 9 weeks by breeding my own... than I have solved my problem of buying chicks every year. I don't think it will be that hard, but it will take time.
