Quote:
You're right, they are banned in pork and poultry, but widely used in cows. I goofed that one.
You're right, they are banned in pork and poultry, but widely used in cows. I goofed that one.
Organic and Economy
- Thread starter Bossroo
- Start date
I agree with some of the comments being discussed. Organic from commercial operations is not usually what most people think of as organic. Even organic produce, for example, can be grown organically and lack many of the minerals, vitamins, and enzymes compared to produce grown properly. Regarding chickens, I also agree that most of the standards are not far from non-organic standards. Knowing how the produce was grown and how the meat/eggs/dairy were raised is very important. Buying from local markets where you know how things were done is very important to ones health and stimulates the local economies keeping money in the community instead of sending it overseas.
There is a very interesting book that you can get online discussing a very interesting way to raise poultry that isn't pastured; however, yields a very healthy product. This book was written in the early 1900's. It was recommended by a BYC member. The title is "Egg Farming in California A Poultry Book" by Charles Weeks. I was very impressed with how he did things. If I were to get into egg production more full time I would probably do it the same way he did.
I would also like to add another example of organic not necessarily being the absolute best. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely better. Cows, sheep, and goats are all ruminents. Their stomaches are designed for processing grasses and herbacious plants. Most organically raised beef, lamb, and dairy come from animals that are fed grains. Even though they are raised to organic standards with organic grains, this isn't the healthiest way to raise them. In order to get a truly healthy product you must raise these animals on grass and herbacious plants only. Milk for example, is very healthy if it is not pasturized and comes from healthy grass fed cows grown without the use of any synthetics in any part of the process. You can take the same cow and feed it organic grains and the quality of the milk drops significantly. These are my opinions based on several years research; however, I have found most foods to follow the same scenerio. Eggs can be very healthy if they come from animals raised properly.
I wanted to add a comment regarding feed. Please use non-GMO even if you don't want to or can't afford organic grain. Please say NO to GMO. I had a small area I placed a few of my organically pasture raised chickens and fed them some conventional "Natural" feed. A very popular brand I won't mention. You can PM me if you want the name. They all died within 24 hours. I did this to prove a point. I also had too many roosters and was going to cull them anyways. I do by organic grain only. That's all I have ever bought and grown for my birds except for this little test.
There is a very interesting book that you can get online discussing a very interesting way to raise poultry that isn't pastured; however, yields a very healthy product. This book was written in the early 1900's. It was recommended by a BYC member. The title is "Egg Farming in California A Poultry Book" by Charles Weeks. I was very impressed with how he did things. If I were to get into egg production more full time I would probably do it the same way he did.
I would also like to add another example of organic not necessarily being the absolute best. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely better. Cows, sheep, and goats are all ruminents. Their stomaches are designed for processing grasses and herbacious plants. Most organically raised beef, lamb, and dairy come from animals that are fed grains. Even though they are raised to organic standards with organic grains, this isn't the healthiest way to raise them. In order to get a truly healthy product you must raise these animals on grass and herbacious plants only. Milk for example, is very healthy if it is not pasturized and comes from healthy grass fed cows grown without the use of any synthetics in any part of the process. You can take the same cow and feed it organic grains and the quality of the milk drops significantly. These are my opinions based on several years research; however, I have found most foods to follow the same scenerio. Eggs can be very healthy if they come from animals raised properly.
I wanted to add a comment regarding feed. Please use non-GMO even if you don't want to or can't afford organic grain. Please say NO to GMO. I had a small area I placed a few of my organically pasture raised chickens and fed them some conventional "Natural" feed. A very popular brand I won't mention. You can PM me if you want the name. They all died within 24 hours. I did this to prove a point. I also had too many roosters and was going to cull them anyways. I do by organic grain only. That's all I have ever bought and grown for my birds except for this little test.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #43
- Jun 15, 2008
- 1,450
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With global warming comes the oportunity for new invasive plant species to take advantage and colonize new lands that were previously not suitable. How are you preparing your lands to fight the new invasives?
Quote:
I plan to fight them off with a shotgun.
I plan to fight them off with a shotgun.
I personally believe climate change is due to changes in solar activity, not made my man. I do believe man has caused many problems. GMO is a big one. Cutting down way too many trees and using to many chemicals are also on the list. Invasive plants are normally pioner plants. They only grow if there is a problem. Some of these "weeds" will grow if there is a lack of plants. They grow to help hold soil together, rebuild soil health, and keep erosion under control. Some actually break up the soil if it is too hard or hold it together if it is too loose. I usually look at the invasive plant to see what task it has in the cycle. I then use that information to help speed up the process so that the weed doesn't regrow.
I would like to add the global warming/climate change idea is being propagated to "justify" a carbon tax.
I would like to add the global warming/climate change idea is being propagated to "justify" a carbon tax.
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- Thread starter
- #46
- Jun 15, 2008
- 1,450
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Star thistle has invaded my "best" grass and clover growing areas of my pasture and avoids the lesser areas over the past 3 years. I never had star thisle in my pastures before. Any ideas ?
Im anti global warming.
We all know The earth rotates of the North / South Pole access ever 24 hours that we call a day. We make a lap around the sun every 365 days that we call a year. To make this more complicated if we look at it with the leap year then Ill take a wild guess that it would be 2.47 seconds that needed to get added in to every 24 hours but this is a wild guess.
Now why dose the North Pole change every year in a circle that can be calculated? Have you ever thought that this could be the blame for global warming? The South Pole dose not change so this would be a pivot point. Because the South Pole rides a relative line around the earth and the North Pole dose not you will get set weather patterns that can be predicted based of the distance of the North Pole to the sun. This would be called global warming and global cooling.
I think NASA should be trusted for this information not me
We all know The earth rotates of the North / South Pole access ever 24 hours that we call a day. We make a lap around the sun every 365 days that we call a year. To make this more complicated if we look at it with the leap year then Ill take a wild guess that it would be 2.47 seconds that needed to get added in to every 24 hours but this is a wild guess.
Now why dose the North Pole change every year in a circle that can be calculated? Have you ever thought that this could be the blame for global warming? The South Pole dose not change so this would be a pivot point. Because the South Pole rides a relative line around the earth and the North Pole dose not you will get set weather patterns that can be predicted based of the distance of the North Pole to the sun. This would be called global warming and global cooling.
I think NASA should be trusted for this information not me
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11746.html :
This may, indeed, have happened according to some recent research. Although the precise mechanism is not understood, millions of years ago it seems that the polar regions were much warmer than today so that ice deposits were not possible. Apparently this cannot be completely explained by continental drift. If the tilt of the Earth's axix were as high as 54 degrees instead of the current 23.5 degrees, the polar regions would indeed have the required warm climates to explain the fossil data, which means that the equatorial regions would be substantially cooler. The tilt of the Earth is a complex balance of forces in this rotating system. Even the motion of large air masses can change its tilt by measurable amounts even today. With major Ice Ages, it is possible that the vast ice sheets and loss of ocean water could have changed the 'moment of Inertia' of the Earth so that large axial tilts could have been common. One normally thinks that only outside forces can substantially alter a planet's spin and axial tilt, but small internal changes acting over million of years time may also be very effective.
This may, indeed, have happened according to some recent research. Although the precise mechanism is not understood, millions of years ago it seems that the polar regions were much warmer than today so that ice deposits were not possible. Apparently this cannot be completely explained by continental drift. If the tilt of the Earth's axix were as high as 54 degrees instead of the current 23.5 degrees, the polar regions would indeed have the required warm climates to explain the fossil data, which means that the equatorial regions would be substantially cooler. The tilt of the Earth is a complex balance of forces in this rotating system. Even the motion of large air masses can change its tilt by measurable amounts even today. With major Ice Ages, it is possible that the vast ice sheets and loss of ocean water could have changed the 'moment of Inertia' of the Earth so that large axial tilts could have been common. One normally thinks that only outside forces can substantially alter a planet's spin and axial tilt, but small internal changes acting over million of years time may also be very effective.
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11657.html :
The cause of this wobble is believed to reside in the natural resonances in the body of the spinning earth due to the detailed distribution of mass in its surface, interior, oceans and atmosphere. This system has a '14-month' harmonic which can be excited through a complex pattern of forcings by the moon, sun and sudden crustal rearrangements (earthquakes). There are many distinct periodic excitations by the sun and moon and their changing distances and tidal forcings, and these result in distinct monthly, yearly and multi-year periodicities in the polar wander. The Chandler Wobble may be a natural harmonic resonance that is also stimulated by these other constant lunar-solar forcings at the natural resonance frequency of the solid earth.
The cause of this wobble is believed to reside in the natural resonances in the body of the spinning earth due to the detailed distribution of mass in its surface, interior, oceans and atmosphere. This system has a '14-month' harmonic which can be excited through a complex pattern of forcings by the moon, sun and sudden crustal rearrangements (earthquakes). There are many distinct periodic excitations by the sun and moon and their changing distances and tidal forcings, and these result in distinct monthly, yearly and multi-year periodicities in the polar wander. The Chandler Wobble may be a natural harmonic resonance that is also stimulated by these other constant lunar-solar forcings at the natural resonance frequency of the solid earth.
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11435.html :
This is the name given to the movement of the earth's pole by 0.7 arcseconds over a period of about 14 months. For more information, visit a site over at the National Radio Astronomy Obserrvatory and check out the IEPS Bulletin at the U.S. Naval Observatory which predicts the earth polar wander based on a mathematical model. Chandler Wobble is a periodic phenomenon which means that it can be modeled by 'simply' fitting a harmonic series of sines or cosines to the past record of deflections, and then using this empirical model to make limited forecasts into the future. From what I understand of the technical literature, the cause of this wobble is believed to reside in the natural resonances in the body of the spinning earth due to the detailed distribution of mass in its surface, interior, oceans and atmosphere. This system has a '14-month' harmonic which can be excited through a complex pattern of forcings by the moon, sun and sudden crustal rearrangements (earthquakes). There are many distinct periodic excitations by the sun and moon and their changing distances and tidal forcings, and these result in distinct monthly, yearly and multi-year periodicities in the polar wander. The Chandler Wobble may be a natural harmonic resonance that is also stimulated by these other constant lunar-solar forcings at the natural resonance frequency of the solid earth.
But right here is $500,000 if you can prove it is man made. I would think that at least a good university would have clamed this prize by now if it was true.
http://www.ultimateglobalwarmingchallenge.com/
Now Im not trying to say the man kind has not messed up the earth beyond belief because we have done a number on it. But to come out and tell me that man kind caused it the beep beep beep beep beep beep.
This is the name given to the movement of the earth's pole by 0.7 arcseconds over a period of about 14 months. For more information, visit a site over at the National Radio Astronomy Obserrvatory and check out the IEPS Bulletin at the U.S. Naval Observatory which predicts the earth polar wander based on a mathematical model. Chandler Wobble is a periodic phenomenon which means that it can be modeled by 'simply' fitting a harmonic series of sines or cosines to the past record of deflections, and then using this empirical model to make limited forecasts into the future. From what I understand of the technical literature, the cause of this wobble is believed to reside in the natural resonances in the body of the spinning earth due to the detailed distribution of mass in its surface, interior, oceans and atmosphere. This system has a '14-month' harmonic which can be excited through a complex pattern of forcings by the moon, sun and sudden crustal rearrangements (earthquakes). There are many distinct periodic excitations by the sun and moon and their changing distances and tidal forcings, and these result in distinct monthly, yearly and multi-year periodicities in the polar wander. The Chandler Wobble may be a natural harmonic resonance that is also stimulated by these other constant lunar-solar forcings at the natural resonance frequency of the solid earth.
But right here is $500,000 if you can prove it is man made. I would think that at least a good university would have clamed this prize by now if it was true.
http://www.ultimateglobalwarmingchallenge.com/
Now Im not trying to say the man kind has not messed up the earth beyond belief because we have done a number on it. But to come out and tell me that man kind caused it the beep beep beep beep beep beep.
- Thread starter
- #48
- Jun 15, 2008
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- 171
You mean that a certain celebrity didn't submit his/her entry ??? What will ever he/she do to buy carbon credits from all of the green folk now ???
For myself, I'd love to feed organic only to my chickens, but until I can grow my own, it's not happening. I can't afford to both buy organic feed, and pay for shipping. I haven't seen organic feed offered anywhere in my area.
There's a lot of confusion about the term "organic", and about the term "commercial". A commercial farm isn't always a megafarm. It may be a small family owned farm. If you're producing something for sale, you are producing a commercial product. A megafarm isn't always a bad thing, but we have seen a lot of irresponsible practices from them.
Just because there are ostensible organic megafarms who have diluted the meaning of organic food, doesn't mean all organics are suspect, crooked, corrupt, etc.
There's also an alternative certification program, called Naturally Grown: http://www.naturallygrown.org/
They have higher standards than the USDA Organic program, but at the same time, less red tape and BS to deal with, and it's less expensive.
My garden is organic. It has no pesticides or herbicides used on it, except a little Safer insecticidal soap, the active ingredient is a potassium salts of fatty acids. It's approved for organic use. I use an organically approved sulfur spray to control cedar-apple rust, which is rampant in this area.
I can't legally call my produce organic, because I don't have certification. It's in reality organic, but not legally organic. This is a real PITA to me, if I want to sell my produce. So for now, I just explain all of this to my customers. They don't mind that I'm not certified, and are happy to have non-toxic produce.
I have fewer bug problems every year, as the soil gets better, and the plants are therefor healthier.
Anybody having weed trouble might find this helpful:
http://www.bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=BCO-1200
I read this book a long time ago, when I lived in Seattle. It was a library book so I couldn't keep it. I'm about to order a copy for myself, now that I've located it again. It can probably be found elsewhere, too, ebay, Amazon, Cheap Books, etc.
It tells what conditions encourage which weeds, and ow to use the weeds themselves to correct the conditions and improve the soil. Not having the book, but understanding the theory, I tested it on several patches of weedy ground, and it works. (I have many more to go, as I work on expanding my crop area)
In a nutshell, when soil needs help, weeds grow. The seeds are always there, but they don't germinate until they're needed. If you have lots of weeds, it's a sure sign that your soil needs help. Weeds often have long, tough tap roots. Those roots penetrate deep, even through hardpan, and bring valuable minerals up to the surface. When the weeds die in the fall, they decompose, and those nutrients are transferred to the topsoil, along with the bio-mass provided by the decomposing weeds. Over time, the soil rebuilds, unless it's repeatedly assaulted by chemicals, etc. As the soil fertility is restored, you begin to see fewer "noxious" weeds, and more grasses, clovers, lamb's quarters, and other plants that make good graze, ground cover, and other things.
Gardening and many other enterprises are a lot easier, if you work in harmony with nature, rather than waging war on it.
Humans are part of nature, after all. We're the only creature that launches assaults against nature. No wonder we're in such a mess.
There's a lot of confusion about the term "organic", and about the term "commercial". A commercial farm isn't always a megafarm. It may be a small family owned farm. If you're producing something for sale, you are producing a commercial product. A megafarm isn't always a bad thing, but we have seen a lot of irresponsible practices from them.
Just because there are ostensible organic megafarms who have diluted the meaning of organic food, doesn't mean all organics are suspect, crooked, corrupt, etc.
There's also an alternative certification program, called Naturally Grown: http://www.naturallygrown.org/
They have higher standards than the USDA Organic program, but at the same time, less red tape and BS to deal with, and it's less expensive.
My garden is organic. It has no pesticides or herbicides used on it, except a little Safer insecticidal soap, the active ingredient is a potassium salts of fatty acids. It's approved for organic use. I use an organically approved sulfur spray to control cedar-apple rust, which is rampant in this area.
I can't legally call my produce organic, because I don't have certification. It's in reality organic, but not legally organic. This is a real PITA to me, if I want to sell my produce. So for now, I just explain all of this to my customers. They don't mind that I'm not certified, and are happy to have non-toxic produce.
I have fewer bug problems every year, as the soil gets better, and the plants are therefor healthier.
Anybody having weed trouble might find this helpful:
http://www.bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=BCO-1200
I read this book a long time ago, when I lived in Seattle. It was a library book so I couldn't keep it. I'm about to order a copy for myself, now that I've located it again. It can probably be found elsewhere, too, ebay, Amazon, Cheap Books, etc.
It tells what conditions encourage which weeds, and ow to use the weeds themselves to correct the conditions and improve the soil. Not having the book, but understanding the theory, I tested it on several patches of weedy ground, and it works. (I have many more to go, as I work on expanding my crop area)
In a nutshell, when soil needs help, weeds grow. The seeds are always there, but they don't germinate until they're needed. If you have lots of weeds, it's a sure sign that your soil needs help. Weeds often have long, tough tap roots. Those roots penetrate deep, even through hardpan, and bring valuable minerals up to the surface. When the weeds die in the fall, they decompose, and those nutrients are transferred to the topsoil, along with the bio-mass provided by the decomposing weeds. Over time, the soil rebuilds, unless it's repeatedly assaulted by chemicals, etc. As the soil fertility is restored, you begin to see fewer "noxious" weeds, and more grasses, clovers, lamb's quarters, and other plants that make good graze, ground cover, and other things.
Gardening and many other enterprises are a lot easier, if you work in harmony with nature, rather than waging war on it.
Humans are part of nature, after all. We're the only creature that launches assaults against nature. No wonder we're in such a mess.
Quote:
I will look through some of my books and get back with you later regarding Star thistle.
I will look through some of my books and get back with you later regarding Star thistle.
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