Oriental Gamefowl Thread!

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Folks, can we please keep it civil, I would hate to see this thread closed down like so many of the other good topics all because of a couple disagreements

 

[GotGame]

Wow peddler, not even sure where to start. I guess there isn't even a point in arguing the topic gameness with someone that thinks their maran is game. I will suffice too say u have a LOT to learn. About gamefowl, and respect. Good luck.

 

[Illia]

Okay, 1 - I'm a woman and do gamefowl, so no, no need of "manhood" to prove with gamefowl.. 2 - The top two breeders of true Shamos are women. 3 - The gameiness thing is just to keep the true breed going. If one has a single combed, feather-legged white soled bird that lays a normal brown egg, by the club, that isn't right to call it a Marans and I don't see you complaining? A gamehen or gamecock is basically fitting and of blood to a certain game-breed, but with that, it should have the desirable characteristics that come with such. Some should always have good station and proud behavior, some should be exceptionally troublesome and aggressive towards other birds in both genders, all should NEVER be aggressive and generally easy to handle. A high price is about purity, rarity, and fitting to the breed type and temperament. Same as a Marans would have a high price for fitting to the SOP and having genetics for some really, really dark eggs.

I don't see any problem with people's high objection to some "gamefowl" because it's their opinion, and also, it keeps some of the really, really old breeds going good out there. Personally I'd like to know that if I bought some Asils, I bought them because they're from seriously old lines and still hold the same type and temperament their ancestors did back when they were from, say, Pakistan or India, and bred for fighting. I'm not using these birds as a status symbol for for fighting, but it sure is nice to preserve the original breed and enjoy its unique qualities. Most are very intelligent and much easier to work with than average, non-gamey chickens.

 

[fowlman01]

Just because a breed is supposed to be game doesn't mean it is. That's why there is a lot of junk out there concerning games. You can have gamefowl that don't have a lick of game to them if they are not bred properly. KO's are not really considered gamefowl, they are more of an ornamental bird.

Ko's are pretty much ornamental, but some possess not only attitude, but apparently some gameness. I had one of my KO males get out of his pen and somehow he ended up in the pen of a black Asil male. My black Asils are considered very game by most folks, but when I looked in the pen, the KO...which I expected to be dead....looked fine, but the Asil had both eyes closed from the swelling. I don't know how the KO was not killed, but he didn't have any marks on him. This particular Asil male had killed two of his brothers at three weeks old, so I know he is not a pussy cat. I still don't know how or what the KO did, but apparently they have some gameness. This particular KO had been with a brother up until about a month before this, with no fighting so it is highly unusual. One good kick from the Asil would have killed this little guy.

When I see two male orientals standing together here in pictures I know that they are not anything like my Orientals. Mine like people, but absolutely hate other chickens. It is just in them, I don't do anything to encourage fighting.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Hey, is this where I prove my manhood (gameness)? Oh what...this is a chicken thread, my bad... Cmon now, this place was a fun place to visit now we have to prove how big our - - - - is, I meant ego? Anybody got a GameOmeter I can borrow? How does one measure gameness and by whose standards? If I take a meat cleaver and cut off an aseels head and it squawks as I do it then it wasn't very game? Ok, I have a marans cockerel that is just as game (LMAO) as my brazilian aseels. Now the cockers I know are going to blame it on poor breeding of the brazilians, yeah I've heard it before, junk blah, blah ,blah...so what's new? Then does that mean that my marans is disqualified to be shown as such cause he displays too much gameness and I should enter him into the WSC? He wasn't bred for gameness, but he is, does that mean I have to go around proving it and if so, what for... he's still going to be a marans. I guess I could give him a cool name like widowmaker or samurai, how's about "The Intimidator"? Funny how some breeders are under the impression that when they have it it's worth gold and when someone else has it it's junk. The very best breeder I ever, ever, spoke with and met said this, "boy, breed whatever makes you happy cause at the end of the day that's all that matters". By the way, my marans gamecock is for sale for $1,500 + shipping and I'm also selling ocean front property exclusively to cockers.

I'm not sure why you would just recently join this site and then start posting provocative comments in an Oriental gamefowl thread....but it seems a bit trollish to me.

Walt

 

[DTchickens]

Okay, 1 - I'm a woman and do gamefowl, so no, no need of "manhood" to prove with gamefowl.. 2 - The top two breeders of true Shamos are women. 3 - The gameiness thing is just to keep the true breed going. If one has a single combed, feather-legged white soled bird that lays a normal brown egg, by the club, that isn't right to call it a Marans and I don't see you complaining? A gamehen or gamecock is basically fitting and of blood to a certain game-breed, but with that, it should have the desirable characteristics that come with such. Some should always have good station and proud behavior, some should be exceptionally troublesome and aggressive towards other birds in both genders, all should NEVER be aggressive and generally easy to handle. A high price is about purity, rarity, and fitting to the breed type and temperament. Same as a Marans would have a high price for fitting to the SOP and having genetics for some really, really dark eggs.

I don't see any problem with people's high objection to some "gamefowl" because it's their opinion, and also, it keeps some of the really, really old breeds going good out there. Personally I'd like to know that if I bought some Asils, I bought them because they're from seriously old lines and still hold the same type and temperament their ancestors did back when they were from, say, Pakistan or India, and bred for fighting. I'm not using these birds as a status symbol for for fighting, but it sure is nice to preserve the original breed and enjoy its unique qualities. Most are very intelligent and much easier to work with than average, non-gamey chickens.

Well said, a pity this thread has been hit by trolls. Why does it matter if your birds are not game, and mine are? In my view a "Game" that lacks gameness is as every bit of "junk" as a hard-feathered, single combed, clean legged Silkie! But that is my view, are they nice birds? Yes they can be nice birds to my view and still be junk, I have a bird running around I consider a junk bird because he isn't game, but he is a nice bird nonetheless.

I would say the same as the breeder on the page before this one said, if the birds make you happy that is all that matters. Gameness is a issue that varies among breeders, I have realized this. Many breeders think aggression = gameness, while I say it isn't so, but gameness is much deeper than aggression. I mean by that, that even a Rhode Island Red will be aggressive, and even fight to the death occasionally if you are not there to stop them. But that doesn't make them a game, they will still be able to work out a pecking order and then coexist.

Now, those breeders who only view gameness as aggressiveness are ruining the breed just as much as the ones who have birds that aren't aggressive period. Maybe even more! I say more because the birds display enough aggressiveness to sell for a pretty buck, you breed some, and just by raising them and watching birds develop you can tell they are not fully game if you have been around them long enough. At least those with birds that lack aggression completely are selling exactly what you can see.

"Why not give your birds to beginners to help them get started off?" How do you know I wouldn't give my birds to beginners? I would love to see true gamefowl flourish, any breed I raise I would love to see flourish, if I didn't why raise them? I'm not in this hobby for money, I breed my birds the way I like them as we all do. And the last I checked, I am still allowed to raise gamefowl, so I do for now.

To ask such a question is disrespectful to MANY people you don't even know. I was given my Shamo from a guy on this very thread, all I paid was shipping and box for the first bird. The other two which were a total of 120 he paid for and when I tried to pay him back later, he told me to keep it.

I was recently gifted a Malay Bantam from a very knowledgeable breeder on this board and other boards for a Kraienkoeppe project I hope to begin soon. All I paid was shipping and box again. Most of my American Gamefowl were given to me, etc. Would I be so stingy to not help out another person? Of course not! And I am very thankful to the two breeders for their help, they know who they are.

If I had the extra birds, I would gladly help a person out. Be they American Gamefowl, Shamo, or even Kraienkoeppe later on. I have even discussed with one person who follows this thread as well telling them if I had any extra Kraienkoeppe that were decent quality I may slip them in a box to them along with some Shamos they were asking about.

God bless,
Daniel.

 

[fowlman01]

Well said Daniel.

Walt

 

[Gresh]

I would politely ask that you not declare things you probably don't know a lot about

By all means, voice your opinion, but keep it at a courteous level.

As thread starter, I feel that it is my responsibility to discourage quarreling, and to politely extend the option of reporting to the Moderators if arguments continue unabated. Sarcasm and arrogance are good fuel for the fires of conflict.

If I have misunderstood you, forgive me, but I am not the only one who has noticed.

~Gresh~

As far as the comparison with wall street and war, I have to disagree and hand it to those wall street folks. They're there no matter what!! Just cause a man/woman dresses like a soldier doesn't mean they're gonna perform like one. With all due respect, if we threw all them "brave men/women" back into war against their will over and over, a great percentage WILL quit and run home. Really, why aren't they all out there looking for wars to fight in right now if that's what they were bred for? If I set the standards...then they aren't brave/game enough period. IMO, unless this is a sanctioned event/forum or you are buying birds to fight, it shouldn't matter if someone else's bird is not game and they're excited/proud to share pictures with evrryone. Here's a challenge if you are "GAME", instead of pointing out all the bad points of someone else's birds, why don't you just give them one of yours for free to get them started on the right track if in fact it's true yours are that much better? Let's make it one a month as long as you are on BYC and breeding?

 

[CUDA]

Ko's are pretty much ornamental, but some possess not only attitude, but apparently some gameness. I had one of my KO males get out of his pen and somehow he ended up in the pen of a black Asil male. My black Asils are considered very game by most folks, but when I looked in the pen, the KO...which I expected to be dead....looked fine, but the Asil had both eyes closed from the swelling. I don't know how the KO was not killed, but he didn't have any marks on him. This particular Asil male had killed two of his brothers at three weeks old, so I know he is not a pussy cat. I still don't know how or what the KO did, but apparently they have some gameness. This particular KO had been with a brother up until about a month before this, with no fighting so it is highly unusual. One good kick from the Asil would have killed this little guy.

When I see two male orientals standing together here in pictures I know that they are not anything like my Orientals. Mine like people, but absolutely hate other chickens. It is just in them, I don't do anything to encourage fighting.

Walt

He was probably confused why that chick wanted to fight with him Walt...lmao! Just a note too, no disrespect intended, but true games WILL NOT tolerate another male around them period, and will die trying to kill it. Anything other than that is just aggression, not gameness. There are all kinds of aggressive fowl out there, RIR's are some of the worst, but there is a huge difference between that and a game cock. I say this not to rub anyone wrong, but to try to get people to understand that if you have a breed of gamefowl that you are trying to preserve, and aren't breeding towards gameness, you aren't preserving anything. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer about owning what makes you happy, and everyone has different tastes and opinions, and I have no problems with that. The problem now days is there are just too many people trying to "preserve" fowl and don't understand HOW important gameness is to the breed. To anyone looking to own games, do your research, then do some more, and be honest about what your goals are before starting. If you want to breed for a show standard only, you might want to consider another breed of fowl so you do the breed the justice as it deserves. If you want just some yard monkeys, ignore everything I just said...lol!

 

[fowlman01]

He was probably confused why that chick wanted to fight with him Walt...lmao! Just a note too, no disrespect intended, but true games WILL NOT tolerate another male around them period, and will die trying to kill it. Anything other than that is just aggression, not gameness. There are all kinds of aggressive fowl out there, RIR's are some of the worst, but there is a huge difference between that and a game cock. I say this not to rub anyone wrong, but to try to get people to understand that if you have a breed of gamefowl that you are trying to preserve, and aren't breeding towards gameness, you aren't preserving anything. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer about owning what makes you happy, and everyone has different tastes and opinions, and I have no problems with that. The problem now days is there are just too many people trying to "preserve" fowl and don't understand HOW important gameness is to the breed. To anyone looking to own games, do your research, then do some more, and be honest about what your goals are before starting. If you want to breed for a show standard only, you might want to consider another breed of fowl so you do the breed the justice as it deserves. If you want just some yard monkeys, ignore everything I just said...lol!

Could be..lol.....I would have liked to have seen the start of that fight. Usually you would just find a dead KO with very little marks on it. People out here buy these black Asils from me because they are game and I know this cock is, so I have no explanation. They are John Bettencourt black Asils and the females don't like other chickens either. The KO must have been standing between his legs and every time he looked the KO jumped on his head....I dunno. I was talking to Suzann Chung yesterday and she had two KO's get out and run into her black Asil pen, which is the same strain I have and they killed the two KO's before she could get off the phone and stop the fighting. Generally the KO's just act tough, but don't follow up.

Walt