Orpingtons of Different Standards

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
I am with you Joy. Only one person is now pushing this idea. And MAYBE Jim should start a new American UK Orp club to back his idea and pay the money to get it done. Cause I do not see anyone else going to that legnth to do it.

I am with you, too!

 

[DaveK]

Quote:
You are stating that because the SOP from two entirely different countries result in birds of differing appearance that they are therefore different breeds entirely. Your own title to your thread here is Orpingtons of Different Standards. So which is it? because I'm reading two different ideas from the same poster depending on where I look. And as others before me have already asked, without, in my opinion,, a satisfactory answer; WHY the big push to label these UK type birds as anything? Why the big push toward the show pen when it doesn't seem exhibiting OR PROVING ANYTHING is the reason most of these folks have these birds? Jim Hall, out of complete respect for the idea of everyone having their own kind of fun I want to ask one question? Would you be keeping and breeding poultry towards any sort of a Standard if suddenly there were no shows? I feel , from my own vantage point, that there are a lot of those with the UK type Orp in their yards or in their mind's eye who don't really care about any of that. They've found something they enjoy and it's as simple as that. As for the black Australian Orpington. You may need to do some homework. The Australorp was developed from the British sort of black and with all the variation that poultry are capable of did evolve into a new breed. But Australia had only the UK sort of black to work with and they did not disappear with the creation of the Australorp. They contributed to it's development and kept right on going in their own right. Our own North American Orpingtons have undergone great changes even since Mr. Cook exhibited at Madison Square Garden. Nobody is devoting all their time and thoughts to that circumstance or suggesting that our modern day Orpingtons should now be called something else. The Orpington is, as poultry go, a very recent newcomer. It seems perfectly logical that there should be variations, changes and some evolving over time. SOPs not withstanding. Also, I have pictures of British bred blacks exhibited in the early 1930s that would not be in the least out of place in todays British show pens. They didn't just show up yesterday.

 

[kathyinmo]

Very well said, DaveK

 

[Goose and Fig]

Quote:
I am with you Joy. Only one person is now pushing this idea. And MAYBE Jim should start a new American UK Orp club to back his idea and pay the money to get it done. Cause I do not see anyone else going to that legnth to do it.

I am with you, too!

Changing the name would be as dumb as changing "Welsummers", or any number of breed names because they're in the US.

I think when you say "UK" or "English" people kinda know what you're talking about.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Type makes the breed. It the type is different, they ARE different breeds. The fact that both go by the same moniker is like saying that all girls named Susan are the same person.

Gonna call you out on this one.

There are "top winners" at APA sanctioned shows, put up by APA licensed judges of good intentions with those breed winners, sometimes even from the same show, looking so very different from each other and other examples of the breed that they could have the observers from the aisle easily thinking that they were different breeds. Not subtle differences between birds where all are slight variations on a theme; blatant, obvious variety of types and physical characteristics such that your definition would have to refer to them as two or even more different breeds. It not only isn't happening that they are considered two different breeds but we have judges who do not all seem to be judging to the same APA SOP. The best exhibition stock in Orpingtons from Europe in general is bred to a different SOP than our own. French LaFleche and German bred Faverolle are wonderful examples of those breeds yet those SOPs are not our own APA version either. Were I to import say Faverolle bred to the German SOP would we have to be going through all this? They may look recognizeably different but those hypothetical birds would still be Faverolle and while bred to a different Standard than most of us are used to seeing ALL these birds are still Orpingtons. Probably including some of the very poorest examples of either type. Poultry populations and genetics are not static and variations in appearance are easy to foster by accident or design. It's just the range of types and qualities within a breed, nothing more and nothing less.

From the 2005 edition of the Bantam Standard, page 20 (bold is mine):
"Since shape makes the breed and color makes the variety, any bantam lacking in shape shall be eliminated from competition."

 

[HenThymes]

Quote:
Gonna call you out on this one.

There are "top winners" at APA sanctioned shows, put up by APA licensed judges of good intentions with those breed winners, sometimes even from the same show, looking so very different from each other and other examples of the breed that they could have the observers from the aisle easily thinking that they were different breeds. Not subtle differences between birds where all are slight variations on a theme; blatant, obvious variety of types and physical characteristics such that your definition would have to refer to them as two or even more different breeds. It not only isn't happening that they are considered two different breeds but we have judges who do not all seem to be judging to the same APA SOP. The best exhibition stock in Orpingtons from Europe in general is bred to a different SOP than our own. French LaFleche and German bred Faverolle are wonderful examples of those breeds yet those SOPs are not our own APA version either. Were I to import say Faverolle bred to the German SOP would we have to be going through all this? They may look recognizeably different but those hypothetical birds would still be Faverolle and while bred to a different Standard than most of us are used to seeing ALL these birds are still Orpingtons. Probably including some of the very poorest examples of either type. Poultry populations and genetics are not static and variations in appearance are easy to foster by accident or design. It's just the range of types and qualities within a breed, nothing more and nothing less.

From the 2005 edition of the Bantam Standard, page 20 (bold is mine):
"Since shape makes the breed and color makes the variety, any bantam lacking in shape shall be eliminated from competition."

Do you raise and breed Exhibition orpingtons??? I say exhibition because there is a big difference in them and most backyard orpingtons. Have you actually read both the UK and American standard for Orpingtons?? Before passing judgement based on someone else's word and a couple of pictures maybe you should. They are extremely similar in their standards, darn near the same.

I am not sure why the OP is using the pics they are as examples as the majority if not all of what has been Imported look nothing like that.... His own picture of what he claims is a pure UK lemon cuckoo looks nothing like what is in the first post, it looks more American SOP than some pure american orps I have seen.

 

[Goose and Fig]

I can't help but wonder if the whole lemon cuckoos in the US was a big scam from day one. I saw some of the original birds that were being bred to the LC roo and they were clearly hatchery buffs. Hey- maybe English x Hatchery = American Orps!

 

[RedReiner]

Quote:
not I , country of origin in my opinion. I will show my birds. if the judge doesnt like it oh well, I wont win. but I had a great time and the crowd of folks around the big fluffy orps asking me where I got them and where can they get some and wow those are beautiful birds will be good enough for me

they are English Orps to me and just because we managed to get them over here doesnt mean we have to go and change them and call them something different.

 

[lildinkem]

I am not sure why the OP is using the pics they are as examples as the majority if not all of what has been Imported look nothing like that.... His own picture of what he claims is a pure UK lemon cuckoo looks nothing like what is in the first post, it looks more American SOP than some pure american orps I have seen.

I agree. The pics on the first page of the thread are not any APA Show Winners. A good example of a well bred APA Orp is this one I had to compete against at the Connorsville Show. I wish more folks would acknowledge Orps like this as OUR APA Orps instead what people think their own birds are.
Our better Orps breeders leave little room for error when they are at their best.
Big head,
Perfect color.
Perfect Tail.
Next to no Comb.
This bird trounced my RV Buff hen.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
From the 2005 edition of the Bantam Standard, page 20 (bold is mine):
"Since shape makes the breed and color makes the variety, any bantam lacking in shape shall be eliminated from competition."

Do you raise and breed Exhibition orpingtons??? I say exhibition because there is a big difference in them and most backyard orpingtons. Have you actually read both the UK and American standard for Orpingtons?? Before passing judgement based on someone else's word and a couple of pictures maybe you should. They are extremely similar in their standards, darn near the same.

I am not sure why the OP is using the pics they are as examples as the majority if not all of what has been Imported look nothing like that.... His own picture of what he claims is a pure UK lemon cuckoo looks nothing like what is in the first post, it looks more American SOP than some pure american orps I have seen.

My statement was that if they are different types, they are different breeds. I am not an orpington breeder at all. Don't have any and don't plan to. I do enjoy discussions of breed standards and genetics. The title of this thread caught my eye.

What I do not understand is why people who prefer the APA standard for orpingtons care one way or the other about people who enjoy birds bred to the British standard wanting to get that standard recognised. Why should it matter to you any more than marans or serama being recognised? I do not get the impression that they are trying to change the current standard for orpingtons, where I could see a reason for a rousing row among orpington breeders. I see them as wanting to add a new breed--what is the point of raining on their parade? They are not asking you to participate in their efforts; they ARE trying to reach out to others who might have the same interest.