Orpingtons of Different Standards

[HenThymes]

Quote:
I agree Bill, that's why I started from the ground up with my American chocolates, Homegrown!! Yes it has taken me awhile as you have to start from the begging, hatch, cull, grow, hatch, grow, cull... But, I am now on F3's (more hatching today) and headed much in the right direction. They are way smaller than the UK orps so no having to work my way back down. They are also more to American SOP, hoping to bring out a few to local shows next year. Oh, and none of these have been sold to the public.

ps- chocolate gene was already here before the orps arrived.

 

[DaveK]

Quote:
Type makes the breed. It the type is different, they ARE different breeds. The fact that both go by the same moniker is like saying that all girls named Susan are the same person.

Gonna call you out on this one.

There are "top winners" at APA sanctioned shows, put up by APA licensed judges of good intentions with those breed winners, sometimes even from the same show, looking so very different from each other and other examples of the breed that they could have the observers from the aisle easily thinking that they were different breeds. Not subtle differences between birds where all are slight variations on a theme; blatant, obvious variety of types and physical characteristics such that your definition would have to refer to them as two or even more different breeds. It not only isn't happening that they are considered two different breeds but we have judges who do not all seem to be judging to the same APA SOP. The best exhibition stock in Orpingtons from Europe in general is bred to a different SOP than our own. French LaFleche and German bred Faverolle are wonderful examples of those breeds yet those SOPs are not our own APA version either. Were I to import say Faverolle bred to the German SOP would we have to be going through all this? They may look recognizeably different but those hypothetical birds would still be Faverolle and while bred to a different Standard than most of us are used to seeing ALL these birds are still Orpingtons. Probably including some of the very poorest examples of either type. Poultry populations and genetics are not static and variations in appearance are easy to foster by accident or design. It's just the range of types and qualities within a breed, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[chickened]

I have a question for the orpington experts, what color(s) would one get by crossing a jubilee with a splash?

 

[Greenspur]

Jubilee x Splash = Tolbunt?!

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

So should the Australorp be a different variety of the Orpington? The APA Standards Committee set a precedent in 1929 that if an imported bird did not meet the SOP it was not of that breed. The Black Australian Orpington was not the same as a Black Orpington, thus it was renamed the Australorp.

Obviously the English Orpington is not the same TYPE as the American. Since TYPE makes the breed, there are two distinct breeds. Novices can argue and debate this, but mmbers of the Standards Committee have stated these are not Orpingtons per the SOP.

No one is saying they are not beautiful. We are simply saying they should be accepted as a distinctively new breed and shown accordingly at the shows. Whenever anyone sells eggs, chicks or stock it should be made clear that these are not SOP quality.

It would seem beneficial for the breeders of the English imports to be accepted as a new distinctive breed. They would compete against themselves first and then the remaining English Class.

 

[Phantom_Rooster]

Quote:
Jim, Those chocolates look very nice. Best of luck on your hatch.

 

[Goose and Fig]

Why not have the English Orps compete as a different class of Orpington- for example-
1- bantam US
2- bantam UK
3- large fowl US
4- large fowl UK

This way the colors that are accepted in the UK classes that are not accepted yet in the US would still be able to compete for certain standings.
I am not really versed in the "show lingo", so forgive me that.

 

[lildinkem]

I think DaveK hit the nail on the head. You can go to 10 different shows and have 10 different winners here in the States. Most all APA judges do not own Orpingtons whether it be Bantams or Large Fowl. I seen a very lite eye Black win Champ English at one show and then win BV at Crossroads. Was that bird so much better then the dozen other Blacks entered to beat them with a lite eye? I personally would not have chosen her over the others. But,, she did have outstanding type and a tighter feather. And that seemed to be enough to win. Type is a matter of perspective and opinion by each judge. 2 years ago at the Ohio Natls I seen Black Australorp cocks who looked more like Orpingtons then Australorps win the BB of Aussies. Nice to say at the 2010 Indiana State Fair an Akers Australorp, which matched the exact description of the SOP for Australorps. won the Open Show. I think it may take some time but these APA judges will get it right. No need to hit the panic button and jump sides and try to push this new breed idea thru the APA. They won't buy it!
I do not think we need to keep on with this line of thought that we need to have another version of Orpington Standard to satisfy the minority. MOST of the folks who have them, do not show them. They do not want to make a new breed club to campaign for them as a new breed. Pay the APA money to get them to have a qualifying meet. Why don't we accept them as they are and let APA judges, who have been trained by the ole timers on how to interpret the SOP, decide what an Orp is at these APA Shows. One week it may very well be a UKenized Orp the next week it maybe a 100% ALL AMERICAN ORP.
I am breeding my birds to the APA SOP cause I like them to be shown. I am an American. And I do not think BUYING ALL AMERICAN is all that bad.
100% ALL AMERICAN 7 month ole pullet!
You don't have to like it. But get use to competing against US.

 

[jeremy]

Quote:
You would get solid Blue birds that are split to the Mottling gene with lots of red/mahogany leakage, especially in the males.

Breeding those birds together and back to the parent Jubilee birds could eventually result in Blue Jubilees.

 

[jeremy]

Quote:
No, not at all.

Jubilee is essentially Mille Fleur.

Tolbunt is a bird that is Gold Laced with Mottling.

Two completely different colors.