Parelli Strikes Again!

[Redcatcher]

There may be a lot of people who will disagree with me but some of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard regarding horse training and behavior has come from the Parellis. I don't understand how anyone so far off base on a number of accounts can become so popular.

First statement:

"Some horse owners think it's a sign of affection and companionship when their horse is "in their pocket". They like the fact that that he wants to be close and think this means they've earned his trust and companionship.....Ironically, in equine body language, being this close to a human is actually a sign of disrespect and dominance."

Wrong. It's the body language of the horse as he enters a human's personal space, not the space, that determines whether it's disrespect and dominance. Horses are social animals and it's normal for them to seek out companionship with other horses and humans that they know and trust. It's comforting for them to be in close physical contact. It's how they show affection for one another. Know your horse and use your own judgment. If he's showing you signs of what you believe is trust and companionship, in the only way he knows how, you are very likely correct. Accept it for what it is.

Second Statement:

"The next time you're grooming your horse and he swings his body towards you, flap your arms dramatically or do jumping jacks. He will respond immediately by getting out of your space."

FIRST, pay close attention to your horse's body language. If you see him shifting his weight, get his attention NOW. Chances are he's either distracted or fidgeting. Flailing one's arms and doing jumping jacks after he's swung into you is no way to correct a horse. He won't understand what it was for and it will only agitate him. Even the most alpha horses are capable of understanding and reacting to the slightest nuances of body language.

The Perellis continually contradict themselves by asking that you communicate to your horse as another horse would (which is their explanation for the flailing arms and jumping jacks) but in turn expect your horse to not treat you as another herd member. And training has absolutely nothing to do with diet. A domestic horse will never perceive his owner or trainer as a predator no matter how he or she behaves around him.

 

[Peaches Lee]

Hmm, well, first off, I'm not a Parelli follower AT ALL. But, I have to agree somewhat with the "in your pocket" statement. If I see a horse advertised as in your pocket, I am immediately put off because the horse is rude, pushy and in your face dangerous. To me if a horse thinks you are another horse, it is a very dangerous situation. Horses need to respect my space and not bull me around which many of the "in your pocket" horses I've met have done.

Again I don't follow the Parellis but yes, it does seem contradictive to teach people to act like horses and then expect the horses not to think of you as a horse. I don't know how jumping jacks and flailing arms are similar to horse language though...

Don't know what they said about diet and training but sometimes, for example, horses with low magnesium can be very spooky and stressed making training difficult, so a modified diet can get the horse the proper nutrients to help focus on his work. But I don't know their whole theory on that so maybe my point is moot (mute?) LOL!!

 

[Redcatcher]

I've been around horses for phhtt...60 years and the only time I've come across a pushy in your pocket horse is when there are treats or he's looking for treats. Although I've seen some bridled horses that will try to rub their heads on humans. These horses have an overwhelming urge to itch themselves and will use whatever they can. It's not dominance. If you've ever watched Jean-Francois or Frederic Pignon with their horses, they are ALL in your pocket horses and they accept him as their heard leader. It makes the Parellis appear foolish with their rodeo, rope twirling and arm flapping behavior.

By diet I meant that the Parelli's continually refer to humans as predators and horses as prey animals. And that we must be very careful not to engage in predatory behavior. Believe me, your horse doesn't care if you had a big juicy steak for dinner. A domestic horse will NEVER perceive you as a predator unless he's 100% feral.

 

[WalkingWolf1]

I'm with peaches on this one as well. Not a Parelli fan or student but I will not tolerate a horses presence within my personal space unless I initiate it, period. I've been around horses over 45 years and find the 'if you give them an inch they'll take a mile'. Don't know if my horses (and mules) see me as an equine or not. The one thing they do know is that I make the decisions on who gets to stand where.

A nice video but you use horses trained by a professional at the highest level as your example. While a nice exhibition, this will not be the horse you interact with 99% of the time. Unfortunately, what you end up with most of the time is a spoiled animal that people have humanized and they have become bratts. 1000 pound bratts. This is one of the reasons I raise my own babies and bring them up.

 

[therapydoglady]

I had horses as a child, but someone else trained them. When I got back into horses as an adult , quite by mistake (I rescued a starving Arabian mare), I set about finding someone who could help me train her. Unfortunately, it was a Parelli-trained instructor, who refused to let me be friends with my horse and visa-versa. Didn't take me long to find John Lyons and Clinton Anderson. We are a much happier "team" now, and I have 5 other "team members" now as well. Donkeys and Mules are a little different, but most of it still works.

Have just rescued a 6th horse, starving, as usual (graded out as a whopping 2) and have already started him in the round pen. I am pushing 60 years old, and am only 5'4" so I am not physically a strong woman. But each of my horses knows my hand signals, and I can move them anywhere in the arena I want with no more than a wave of my hand. They come to me when I kiss to them and pat my chest, stand contentedly in front of me and wait patiently for their reward. They are NEVER "in my pocket" or "in my zone" unless specifically invited. I love bothe John Lyons and Clinton Anderson. Excellent horsemen with a working knowlege of horse speak!

 

[Redcatcher]

Both of you (Peaches and Wolf) are referring to an aggressive, undisciplined or unsocialized horse. This type of horse has a different agenda and he will typically invade a human's personal space using a different type of body language. My point is that it's HOW a horse invades a human's personal space that determines if it's aggression, not the space itself. I don't consider myself to be a professional but all of the foals I've raised were raised to be in your pocket horses. All behave respectfully and will actively seek physical contact as a sign of trust, affection and companionship. I not only allow it but encourage it. I have a 16 year old stallion that will approach me and rest his head on my shoulder for 20 minutes at a time. He approached a neighbor once and began nuzzling his beard (who was a little confused and amused by it). I wasn't worried. I wasn't even worried when my vet got into the habit of kissing him on the nose (who thought he was a gelding all along). This is pure affection and anyone who doesn't know the difference is missing out on one of life's joys.

 

[Peaches Lee]

That pony in the video is so cute! I guess it's all about perspective. I, personally, wouldn't call those horses "in your pocket" through my experience of the heavily labeled "in your pocket" horses I've met and dealt with. Those horses only approach that man (not sure if that is Pignon?) when he asks them to; otherwise they are waiting patiently, respectfully in a line. And I agree, a horse with an itchy head from a bridle rubbing on you is not dominance, it's convenience LOL!!

I like to have a healthy space between me and my horse. In the pasture they most certainly can approach me, but I must give the "yes, you can come closer" signal. What I don't like is the barreling up "you will pet me" "got any treats" and even physical pushiness some undisciplined and spoiled horses will exhibit, but are labeled as "in your pocket". And I agree about raising horses for trust and affection towards humans and actively encouraging it. One of my favorite riding instructors even has a book called "A Matter of Trust" of which I own two copies.

Redcatcher, I think you and I are on the same page, we are just labeling the horses differently but want the same outcome. Kind of like how in the UK they call it Petrol, but the US calls it gas.

 

[WalkingWolf1]

Again, I agree with peaches. Those horses look one way but only do what they are instructed to do. No horse will encroach in my space unless I ask them to -- for whatever reason.

Redcatcher -- O'k. We're simply from two different schools of thought.

 

[Redcatcher]

Again, I agree with peaches. Those horses look one way but only do what they are instructed to do. No horse will encroach in my space unless I ask them to -- for whatever reason.

Redcatcher -- O'k. We're simply from two different schools of thought.

I think you've missed my point. Whether or not you allow a horse to invade your personal space without your permission is a matter of personal choice. I respect the decision of those who choose not to allow it. The point that I'm trying to make is that when a horse wants to be close to a human, it's not "actually" a sign of disrespect or dominance that the Parelli's claim it is. The same goes for any social domestic animal, whether it be a dog, a cat or a pet chicken. The only difference is the weight of the animal and that is why I can understand why people don't like a horse encroaching in their space without their permission. The Parelli's don't understand herd dynamics and are hung up on the predator vs. prey animal rationalizing that doesn't mean a thing when it comes to domestic horses. It would be a shame if people took their statements as fact and without trusting their own judgments.

 

[WalkingWolf1]

I think you've missed my point. Whether or not you allow a horse to invade your personal space without your permission is a matter of personal choice. I respect the decision of those who choose not to allow it. The point that I'm trying to make is that when a horse wants to be close to a human, it's not "actually" a sign of disrespect or dominance that the Parelli's claim it is. The same goes for any social domestic animal, whether it be a dog, a cat or a pet chicken. The only difference is the weight of the animal and that is why I can understand why people don't like a horse encroaching in their space without their permission. The Parelli's don't understand herd dynamics and are hung up on the predator vs. prey animal rationalizing that doesn't mean a thing when it comes to domestic horses. It would be a shame if people took their statements as fact and without trusting their own judgments.

I disagree with your assessment once again. As previously stated, I'm no Parelli fan and quickly grew tired of their perpetual predator/prey mantra but invading your space IS a sign of disrespect or dominance and that is not a Parelli-ism but simply a truth used by the Parellis. Because you don't see it that way and allow it doesn't mean it is not so. Your horses may not even see it as such but it is what I call "testing the water". Everyone's understanding of herd dynamics will vary with significant differences within the 80/20 bell curve. I don't think your position, nor the Parellis, is outside of the 80%. The two positions are simply different. I question your understanding of herd dynamics as I may guess you question my own. I position myself as both the stallion and lead mare within my herd. As the stallion I will protect my herd from predation and they depend on me for that. As the lead mare they are to do what I tell them without question. Both my life and theirs will depend on it. A lead mare will not take any "flack" from one of her rank and file. They will come up when she allows it. Not sure to what extent you have read up on how horses communicate but Monty Roberts, among others, talks about Equus -- the language of how horses communicate. I'm not a big Monty Roberts fan but do find this aspect fascinating and have spent considerable time studying it. I guess I'm more of a Clinton Anderson mindset than a Monty Roberts to give some perspective. I do all I can to communicate in the horses natural language and I think we both enjoy the interaction much more. I also do not follow a rigid training discipline but rather bits and pieces from the many different methods I have observed over the years. It's not to say I'm a hard ***** and do not/will not form a close bond with my animals. In contrast I dearly love my horses, and like my own children, they are most content and balanced when they have a healthy respect for the boundaries that are maintained within their lives. Without the proper boundaries, they will continue to push the edges in search of those limitations. It does appear this will be a point we will have to agree to disagree (or not) as it seems you are pretty dug in on your position and I in mine. I just thought for clarity I would provide a bit of where my philosophy originates.