Pied?

[deerman]

pic of my peach white eye peacock, note how all his eyes are white. True not all all white eye have that many white eyes.

 

[Kev]

Hi, want to say not ignoring.. having pains from a surgery earlier in year so my responses may be slow or sparse for a while. Apologies too if I answer this one "short", not an annoyance at all to get questions.. just very distracted right now.

Quote:
There are many genes involved in making the visual phenotype. In the hundreds, may be thousands. Just the color on the male's neck might involve 10 genes(don't know but very likely- it's to show a seemingly simple thing can be due to a very complex interaction) plus/or hormones etc.

That is why the different mutations cause a different looking bird in different ways, because a particular mutation affects a particular pigment, or feather structure, or cells in or around the pigment cells etc.. Purple maybe tells the cells to lay the feather granules in a different way. cameo maybe makes a specific kind of cell involved in pigment making "inactive" etc..

So it's really far, far more than two color genes, even if it seems a single mutation has a body wide effect.. it's still just affecting one small part of the "color making process". The genes don't even have to be on the same chromomsome.. in fact this is already proven by some color mutations being autosomals and some being sex linkeds. The autosomal mutations have not been mapped yet, however it is likely Opal and Bronze are on completely different loci, and just as likely to be on different chromosomes. Could be Opal is somewhere on say, upper arm of Chromosome 4 and Bronze on lower arm of Chromosome 11.

and one on the sex chromosome. Any allel on the sex chromosome of a hen is dominate to the others,

There may be at least two known mutants on the sex chromosome that are on different loci. There seems to be the possibility that Peach are simply birds having both Purple and Cameo. This cannot happen unless they are on different loci, meaning they are not allelic. If this is proven, it would show there are at least two separate loci on the sex chromosome involved in creating the color phenotype.

And, do pure blue birds lack genes opn this loci?

They have the normal version of the gene. The "unbroken/messed up copy", if you will. That is why "new" colors or traits that are different from normal are called "mutant"... they have a "messed up copy of a normal gene somewhere in the bird".

And, why can't a bird be split green?

Green is a separate species from Indian. Species are genetically different from each other on the count of "thousand genes/alleles".. Green have a whole series of genes/hormones etc that act differently than in Indian. For example, it is not just a color difference.. for example, male necks are very different.. Indians have a more silky neck, with the feathers being individually frayed and having many more feathers too.. while Greens have genes that went the route of having "hard" very fish scale shaped with highly complex pattern on them.. can't be done by just one or two genes.. need many different genes "working together" to create that appearence.

It's more like crossing um.. to use a famous example, a horse and a donkey. At least in the concept it's a species crossing not a crossing of "two different colors". (not a perfect example I know as mules are sterile and Green x Indian hybrids are not mules).

p.s. a good hormonal effect having a huge effect can be seen in old peahens when their ovary stops working.. when that happens, they no longer make estrogen so the feathers react by making male-like feathers. It's not her body "dropping one color gene for the male color gene".. male feathers are formed in response to the lack of estrogen in the body.

p.s.s another example of complex gene interaction between different genes/hormones/?? is the displaying behavior difference between Indian and Green. One specific behavioral trait is wing fluttering. Indian males flutter their wings a LOT during display. Pure Greens never do this. Spaldings of varying percentages show varying amounts of wing fluttering between them- some do not flutter, some flutter a lot, others only do so intermittently or incompletely.. however it overall follows a pattern of increasing green blood, the less they flutter the wings until the really high percentage green bloods, they barely flutter the wings. That can't happen if there was a single gene for "wing fluttering".. either the hybrids or mixes would do it just as frequently or never at all with no gray area in between.

Hope that helps?​

 

[Pavo Royale]

Thanks, Kev. Yes that all makes sense. I know that I was vastly oversimplifying things, but that seesm to be the norm in genetic studies from Gregor Mendel to the punnet square. It is really amazying that that little box holds true for such complicated genetic studies. I did not know the suspicions of the two loci on the sex chromosome or the theory surrounding peach. Thanks for your input, and hope your health continues to improve. Mitch

 

[Kev]

Understood.

Gregor Mendel by sheer luck, happened to study specific traits that did have very simple and clear inheritance due to be truly controlled by a single gene. Wrinkled and smooth peas are controlled by a single gene.

A gene with very simple autosomal inheritance can be used in Punnet squares because they follow a specific gene, not the overall phenotype of the whole organism.

At this point, it's still just a suspicion as for Peach. Have tried to talk/ask but got very little response, however following the history- for example the first Purple hen discovered was bred to a Cameo cock.. their sons threw Cameo, Purple... and Peach(the first Peach, in record) daughters. This would make sense in the context of the sons being split for both Purple and Cameo, and also these genes were not allelic so a few daughters would happen to get both Cameo and Purple= Peach.

Deerman has 2 peacocks split for Peach, if he breeds one of them with a normal Silver Pied hen(as he plans to next spring?).. it will be very interesting to see what color daughters he produces. If he produces Peach... and Purple & Cameo daugthers, that would pretty much prove this idea.

 

[deerman]

Kev, I bred the silver pied split peach (my 2yr old, did not know he was spilt) to a silver pied hen I have 2 peach silver pied chicks out of that pen, also some blue silver pieds. One blue dark pied. of corse the peach are hens.

This peacock was from Silver pied split peach also.

Little more info I only have peach and purple, dont breed the cameo.

I do have a silver pied blackshoulder cameo hen. sold all her eggs bred to a blue.

do you think I should put her with my purple split BS ?

 

[Kev]

Quote:
Do you know what his parents were bred with & what color they throw? Also, if you keep or know who bought some of your male's sons, will be interesting to keep track of what color those sons throw.

I do have a silver pied blackshoulder cameo hen. sold all her eggs bred to a blue.

do you think I should put her with my purple split BS ?

Hmm.. will get purple daughters, blue sons split for both purple and cameo.. These sons will be good for testing to see if they throw any Peach daughters. These Peach daughters(if they happen!) will be good birds to breed with your Peach as they would be either unrelated or just a little bit related. Good for new blood. However, that will be several years as you know..

It would also be interesting to breed the silver pied BS cameo hen with your split peach male, because if Peach is both purple and cameo, this cross would produce about half cameo males.. because that is exactly the result of a cameo split male bred with a cameo hen. Half of these cameo sons will be split for purple/peach.

Have to say I am almost afraid to say this because this is still all an idea, until clearly proven or disproven by someone..​

 

[deerman]

Quote:
Do you know what his parents were bred with & what color they throw? Also, if you keep or know who bought some of your male's sons, will be interesting to keep track of what color those sons throw.

I do have a silver pied blackshoulder cameo hen. sold all her eggs bred to a blue.

do you think I should put her with my purple split BS ?

Hmm.. will get purple daughters, blue sons split for both purple and cameo.. These sons will be good for testing to see if they throw any Peach daughters. These Peach daughters(if they happen!) will be good birds to breed with your Peach as they would be either unrelated or just a little bit related. Good for new blood. However, that will be several years as you know..

It would also be interesting to breed the silver pied BS cameo hen with your split peach male, because if Peach is both purple and cameo, this cross would produce about half cameo males.. because that is exactly the result of a cameo split male bred with a cameo hen. Half of these cameo sons will be split for purple/peach.

Have to say I am almost afraid to say this because this is still all an idea, until clearly proven or disproven by someone..​

That silver pied split peach was from a pen. Silver pied split peach peacock, and silver pied hen, peach spalding hen. I have two of the male chicks and two of the female chicks, both males are silver pied, one for sure split,no chicks from the other, both the hens are peach silver pied. These hens were bred to a silver pied split peach peacock, from another breeder.
Other from that pen was splalding, and some white chicks(no cameo or purples)

I still have his sons, also chicks from his sisters and the other silverpied split peach from Doug.

Kev, I wonder about peach as you know, the first peach came from purple line, and another came from the cameo line.

 

[Kev]

Thanks. That was good luck, getting a split male..

Yes, I recently read the history on Purple, turns out the first purple hen was bred to a cameo.. two blue sons were kept and then bred.. resulting in purple, cameo and a peach hen. Makes perfect sense if the peach hen had simply got both the purple and cameo genes from her "split for both" father.

I had also wondered if one of either purple or cameo was dominant over the other, however it appears neither are dominant over the other as peach pops up from both cameo and purple.. my guess from that is peach are homozygous for both purple and cameo.. which would mean a purple male can be split cameo and vice versa.