Pigeons and Chickens??

[jak2002003]

I raise pigeons. The dog training referred to is humane if done correctly, because the dog is not going to touch the pigeon. I know several dog owners who have a few homing pigeons of their own. A pigeon is put into a cage hidden on the ground under tall grass etc, and with a remote control door opener. The dog, a pointer type bird dog, is learning to smell out the bird and to go "on point" at it, that is, to freeze with the nose pointed at the bird telling the hunter where it is. On command, the dog is then to slowly move closer and "flush" the bird into the air for the hunter to shoot. In training with pigeons, the dog is told to "flush", and the trainer uses the remote control to open the cage. The homing pigeon flies into the air and back home to the trainer's loft where he has a nice supper waiting, and the dog is praised for correctly flushing the bird.

The inhumane hunters are the ones who go to a pigeon show or bird sale and buy whatever pigeon is cheap and use it this way. That pigeon is usually NOT a homer, and has no loft to fly home to, so after it is released it starves to death. In fairness, all of the guys I talked to at poultry auctions thought that all pigeons could could just find their way home. After I explained this to any number of hunters asking about buying my pigeons for training dogs, they have all stopped the practice and switched to using homers. A dog trainer really only needs a couple of birds, they don't usually take a bunch of dogs in the field at once, and it is a lot cheaper and easier for him to keep a couple in his garage or shed than to make repeated trips to bird sales and pay for many birds he can only use once. So there is no incentive for the hunter to continue once somebody explains this to him.

Sorry... maybe I was thinking about something else.

I have seen videos where people tie the pigeons legs together... and 'lock' the pigeons wings bending one behind the other... then thrown the live bird for the dog to retrieve..... Or they will use rubber bands on the birds wings to stop it flying a lot.

This is going to hurt the pigeon... and also it will be really stressful for it getting thrown.. and a dog grabbing it in its mouth.

What you describe sounds fine.

 

[poorfarm]

There's any number of inhumane people doing stupid cruel things to animals; I don't know what that was that you saw in a video. For training labrador retrievers or "field trial dogs", ducks are usually used, and the duck is put in a protective jacket or sleeve sort of thing. You could use a land bird as well I suppose. Again, no hunter wants to have to buy a lot of ducks and be able to use a duck only once because it gets injured. It is bred into retriever dogs, and reinforced by training, to have a "soft" mouth. That means the dog must not bite what it's retrieving, must not cause any damage at all. Puppies are started with dummies; some dogs never train on live birds at all. I've seen dogs "retrieve" baby birds they found on the ground completely unharmed.
And although ducks are usually pretty nervous compared to chickens or turkeys, ducks that are kept for this training and used all the time get used to it and laidback about it. If the dog owners also keep ducks or poultry though, they have to make sure to keep the dog out of their pastures or the dogs just keep retrieving all the birds over and over!

 

[laughingdog]

All retriever breeders, mostly labs, in city, get trained on bought birds that are shaken then placed upside down with head tucked under (how to videos of this are all over utube and claim humane as any). The bird then flushed by dog barking pawing n nipping at, and as bird takes off its then shot to kill, as they're bought by box load for only two dollorsor less. Then the young dog usually mauls the bird up until its scolding sets in after times of this training. I've seen hunters in my FAM and many neighbors do and say about, only one I knew that kept a lone pigeon pinioned (tendon in wings cut) supposedly for twenty years to train with, this person given another pigeon to befriend the old lonely one, was tossed to young group of pups to tear apart to make them want to look for birds more, then later young dogs shown by being beaten if they tear up old one. This family competed in majur USA trials and were renounced breeders..
Attitudes hopefully are changing slowely, but many at sales still say cheaper n easier to keep buying when need than keep pigeons quail etc.

 

[poorfarm]

It may depend on your area. Friends of mine in Delaware bred champion field trial dogs, this is how the trained theirs, and how all their buddies trained their dogs. Another friend and I, in Ohio, helped several bird dog guys get set up with their own (very small) flocks of pigeons for training, and shortly after I moved to my new place in PA, a guy stopped by the house (saw the pigeons in a flypen from the road) to ask about how to set up.

Just my own opinion, but I would think that encouraging a dog to kill a bird at one time, then expecting it to retrieve with a soft mouth and no damage so you can put the bird in your pot another time, would give pretty poor results. Again, my opinion, but I find that people who practice cruelty to animals tend to be not too high on the IQ scale to begin with, which is good I suppose, since they do it in front of others and eventually get in trouble.

I don't know what they cost in your area, but I was getting $5 a bird for culls at the auction I was going to (there's a big oriental market for pigeons for meat so there's buyers there bidding up the prices above rock bottom). Even if they didn't care about the pigeons (and I'm not dumb enough to think they all do), most people don't want to lay out several hundred bucks a year for "killer" pigeons when they can keep a couple in the shed cheap. Like I said, there are always people who do inhumane and stupid things. Bad Karma, what goes around comes around at some point.

 

[laughingdog]

I don't know if most, as I know some didnt even hunt, aside from young dog training n trials. I think most were just as seen that they used papers gotten to knock up prices they could sell pups for. Most lived in middle of city n just pellet guns in yards that I saw (I never went out hunting with them). My uncle never did with his dog n kept a couple of call ducks in a big box (aside from big fish tank he had for them to swim in when they n box got too dirty needing cleaning maybe daily to weekly) in basement, in Milwaukee WI.

 

[ChristineR]

It may depend on your area. Friends of mine in Delaware bred champion field trial dogs, this is how the trained theirs, and how all their buddies trained their dogs. Another friend and I, in Ohio, helped several bird dog guys get set up with their own (very small) flocks of pigeons for training, and shortly after I moved to my new place in PA, a guy stopped by the house (saw the pigeons in a flypen from the road) to ask about how to set up.

Just my own opinion, but I would think that encouraging a dog to kill a bird at one time, then expecting it to retrieve with a soft mouth and no damage so you can put the bird in your pot another time, would give pretty poor results. Again, my opinion, but I find that people who practice cruelty to animals tend to be not too high on the IQ scale to begin with, which is good I suppose, since they do it in front of others and eventually get in trouble.

I don't know what they cost in your area, but I was getting $5 a bird for culls at the auction I was going to (there's a big oriental market for pigeons for meat so there's buyers there bidding up the prices above rock bottom). Even if they didn't care about the pigeons (and I'm not dumb enough to think they all do), most people don't want to lay out several hundred bucks a year for "killer" pigeons when they can keep a couple in the shed cheap. Like I said, there are always people who do inhumane and stupid things. Bad Karma, what goes around comes around at some point.

Exactly. You're an idiot if you let your dogs maul birds. Hunters want their birds retrieved in one piece, not half eaten.

Incidentally, my sporting breed dogs have all been very trustworthy around my poultry, waterfowl, and parrots. I caught my English Setter pup carrying around a duck one time. He got a good scolding and never did it again. The duck was unharmed. I've seen my Golden Retriever and Pointer chase a mouse out from underneath the porch. My Golden caught it, it escaped, my Pointer scooped it up, and the mouse ran right out of his mouth. The surprised look on his face was hilarious. My Pointer has actually caught chukars (not what you want, but he was still young). He brought them to me and they were fine. That's how soft you want their mouths to be.

 

[LamarshFish]

I'm only interested in adults. So based on what you are saying, it should be fine as long as I have a roost higher up in the pen for them to sit on. My other concern is health. Will wild pigeons transfer disease to my chickens via their poop?

You might only be interested in adults, but with pigeons you will soon have babies, FYI.

That seems cruel to use live pigeons to train dogs..... that is banned here in the UK.. thankfully. Why can't you use dummies or dead birds?

The pigeons are actually living things.. not objects.

For me, as a hunter, using training birds like chukars and quail which had to be shot or let fly away (and where I live in Michigan these birds do not survive in the wild) wore down on my conscience, knowing that X amount of birds had to die just for me to train a bird dog. This doesn't appear to bother some bird dog folks, but it wore on me. My ultimate goal with a bird dog is to hunt wild birds, with fair chase, and which we eat. I went through a few dozen chukar and quail until I finally learned that you can use homing pigeons in a way that they are not harmed, harassed or killed. The way it is done is by using small devices that hold the pigeon, and at the moment you need the bird to "flush" you release the pigeon from the device and the device sort of launches the pigeon just a few feet off the ground such that the pigeon can easily fly away before the dog can get to it. In my opinion, it is not cruel, and for me is a nice alternative to having to kill training birds such as quail or chukars.

We do use dummies and dead birds, but at some point, for training, the dog has to have live birds that fly in order to steady the dog to wing and shot.

Chickens will kill pigeons. If your training dogs, it is about as easy to buy quail as pigeons.

Problem with using quail is, unless you have the time and resources to let them recall (which is possible), you either have to shoot the ones you plant or they fly away and don't come back (which where I live, they do not survive). It gets expensive, and for some, it wears on your conscience having to kill so many birds just to train a dog.

 

[LamarshFish]

Exactly. You're an idiot if you let your dogs maul birds. Hunters want their birds retrieved in one piece, not half eaten.

Exactly. In fact, hunters want the exact opposite of dogs doing anything but soft mouthing birds. In fact, my dog is a pointing dog, and instinctively locks up and points birds upon the moment he smells them, so he is not going anywhere near the bird, he just freezes. When a bird flies and is downed by a hunter, he goes and retrieves it. It's that simple.

 

[laughingdog]

You are example of good enough hunters with well breed n conditioned dogs. Too bad a lot more sub par hunters out there believe you've got to let pups mail some game at first to start and keep Interest. I used to let my boss take my recued fighting pittbull terrier bird hunting wjth him n his buddies when he wanted to mess with the guys. My Pitt learned by watching my neighbors champion bred expensive triple show and multiple hunting organization registered imported black Labrador retriever German pointers and Brittany spaniels etc. My Pitt figured out what do do second time saw what guy was trying to train pups to do, and he couldn't stand not fetching, so he would go over under etc the fence and show off. First time it happened that I know of I came home to my dog sitting wagging tail at his feet being beaten with dummy gun as was carrying dummy duck still in his mouth. Anyway after an altercation, I made him feel bad in front of his fellow cop buddies because through all this the dog just sat there confused as to why he wasn't praised n to to release n etc working dog commands to go do something else. So then whenever he was out there cursing etc being an ass I'd go out and have my Pitt do, boss thought hilarious as was an avid life long Hunter and retired from champion gun dog breeder, now just using couple of mutt "labs", and a "12 beagle. So he started taking my pittbull out to go hunting whatever as found the dogs nose, pointing, tracking treeing baying flushing retrieving better than many breeds for birds squirrels rabbits coons etc whatever (and herded his chickens where n when told to). Boss had to do were you dip dogs paws squeezing in cooled tea (boss called it picking) as it supposedly toughened the pads when dried and protected them a lot more. So I think all the fancy special breeds funny, as my pittbulls collies and shepherds all have been able to do all and as hard as can be to work large angry cattle in rut, tear apart Intruders and people trying to hurt etc neighbor children, but gentle to run over past herding or retrieving baby chicks kittens ducklings bunnies and adult quail and doves without harmng even fur or feathers.

 

[Chick's View]

I raise pigeons. The dog training referred to is humane if done correctly, because the dog is not going to touch the pigeon. I know several dog owners who have a few homing pigeons of their own. A pigeon is put into a cage hidden on the ground under tall grass etc, and with a remote control door opener. The dog, a pointer type bird dog, is learning to smell out the bird and to go "on point" at it, that is, to freeze with the nose pointed at the bird telling the hunter where it is. On command, the dog is then to slowly move closer and "flush" the bird into the air for the hunter to shoot. In training with pigeons, the dog is told to "flush", and the trainer uses the remote control to open the cage. The homing pigeon flies into the air and back home to the trainer's loft where he has a nice supper waiting, and the dog is praised for correctly flushing the bird.

The inhumane hunters are the ones who go to a pigeon show or bird sale and buy whatever pigeon is cheap and use it this way. That pigeon is usually NOT a homer, and has no loft to fly home to, so after it is released it starves to death. In fairness, all of the guys I talked to at poultry auctions thought that all pigeons could could just find their way home. After I explained this to any number of hunters asking about buying my pigeons for training dogs, they have all stopped the practice and switched to using homers. A dog trainer really only needs a couple of birds, they don't usually take a bunch of dogs in the field at once, and it is a lot cheaper and easier for him to keep a couple in his garage or shed than to make repeated trips to bird sales and pay for many birds he can only use once. So there is no incentive for the hunter to continue once somebody explains this to him.