Pipd's Peeps!

[fluffycrow]

Yeah, with rare exceptions, my production birds all tended to die at around 2-3 years of age, usually to some horrible and incurable malady related to their high production. That's the reason I won't get those types of birds anymore. Too much heartbreak!

In my experience, both breeding for high production and inbreeding while working toward a standard can produce birds with shortened lifespans, though. So breeder birds are less likely to have those egg laying maladies because they're less bred for extreme production, but they can still end up with issues from the shallowness of the gene pool they come from due to selection for a standard. That's one reason why I chose a clan-style breeding setup for my Cochins, with the hopes that it would prevent an inbreeding depression and make the birds I produce a bit hardier. A good breeder should be taking into consideration the health of their birds as well, though, so unless it's a very rare breed where inbreeding is just an inherent issue and will continue being one until more people get involved and more flocks branch out away from the original ones, breeder birds tend to live longer and be hardier than production birds in my experience.




Golden Comets are a high-production egg laying hybrid, so unfortunately are prone to fizzling out early. Sorry you had to go through that!

Yup, year 2 and three is when the first problems start to arise, in my experience. You're lucky to get one to 4 years old. When I first started, that was the normal lifespan. Now it's even less. The last batch struggled to reach age 3/3.5 well put on proper breeding practices. Just mixing doesn't always help (as can be seen with the billion mixes here that are so unhealthy), but considerate mixing with another line (or breed, if the goal isn't a pure bird) is very helpful. I've read about clan breeding before, but haven't fully understood the mentality behind it, and how to implement it. Could you possibly explain it? I'm thinking of implementing this breeding strategy with the serama for next year

 

[fluffycrow]

Oh, wanted to mention as well, Reuben is 100% back to normal. No further issues at all since yesterday morning.

Great news!

 

[2ndTink]

Yeah, with rare exceptions, my production birds all tended to die at around 2-3 years of age, usually to some horrible and incurable malady related to their high production. That's the reason I won't get those types of birds anymore. Too much heartbreak!

In my experience, both breeding for high production and inbreeding while working toward a standard can produce birds with shortened lifespans, though. So breeder birds are less likely to have those egg laying maladies because they're less bred for extreme production, but they can still end up with issues from the shallowness of the gene pool they come from due to selection for a standard. That's one reason why I chose a clan-style breeding setup for my Cochins, with the hopes that it would prevent an inbreeding depression and make the birds I produce a bit hardier. A good breeder should be taking into consideration the health of their birds as well, though, so unless it's a very rare breed where inbreeding is just an inherent issue and will continue being one until more people get involved and more flocks branch out away from the original ones, breeder birds tend to live longer and be hardier than production birds in my experience.




Golden Comets are a high-production egg laying hybrid, so unfortunately are prone to fizzling out early. Sorry you had to go through that!

I have told myself, no more GCs, EVER, nope. I also don't want any more feed store chicks, but... I did buy 11, oops, last spring. I had a broody girl and she needed babies, but she was so scared of them it broke her from being broody then she went broody again 3 weeks later. I was so ticked off at her crazy jurassic chicken. But, my TSC chickies are what started me into the descent of silkie madness, and the SLW chicks I got are the ones who have been steadily laying so it was nice to have eggs all winter. My older girls took a deserved break for a few months. I got an egg each from my oldest 3 BAs yesterday ❤ Into the incubator they go tomorrow! Fizzy the EE x BAs, I'm hoping for some Blues!

 

[2ndTink]

Oh, wanted to mention as well, Reuben is 100% back to normal. No further issues at all since yesterday morning.

Oh Phew! Thanks for the update

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I've read about clan breeding before, but haven't fully understood the mentality behind it, and how to implement it. Could you possibly explain it? I'm thinking of implementing this breeding strategy with the serama for next year

So, basically clan breeding is a way of line breeding without nearly as much of a risk of reaching an inbreeding depression as a result. It's particularly a good way of keeping a rare breed and preventing issues from inbreeding if you simply cannot find unrelated birds to outcross to, but useful as well if you just don't want to outcross for one reason or another, like not wanting to risk introducing diseases or hidden genes that might set your line back.

How it works is you have a minimum of 3 'clans' of birds that are each kept separate from one another for breeding. You can have more clans than that, but you must have at least 3 for a proper clan breeding build. Each clan is assigned a marker, so like in my case I have my blue group, my red group, and my green group. All chicks hatched from each coop are given that marker to distinguish them from one another, so for me I put colored leg bands on my chicks so that I know which clan they came from.

Now, this is where it can be a bit tricky to wrap your head around. All pullets that hatch are returned to the clan they hatched from for breeding. That means when I hatch from my blue group, the best pullets go back into the blue group for breeding. However, all cockerels rotate to the next clan over for breeding, they never go back into their clan of origin. So continuing from the previous example, the best cockerels I hatch out of my blue group will instead move over to the green group for breeding.

Another important detail is that you always rotate your cockerels in the same direction. So using my clans again as an example, I have red, blue, and green clans and I rotate as follows:
Red -> Blue -> Green -> Red
And that's the direction I will always rotate with my cockerels. In doing so, this ensures that for the most part the closest the birds are related to one another are like second-cousins, essentially, instead of parent-offspring as in traditional line breeding, and that little bit of distance in relation to one another helps to prevent inbreeding depression from occurring down the line.

Now, especially when you're just starting out like I am and don't have many birds yet, sometimes you don't get a cockerel that's really good enough to replace your current male in a pen every year. So sometimes you will get a parent-offspring breeding in this setup because swapping out your current male for a fresh one in that case might set you back more than anything, even though you're putting the current male's daughters in the clan as well for breeding. This is okay, provided it doesn't always happen. Chickens are very resilient to inbreeding compared to other species. However, the goal with clan breeding is to have as little close inbreeding as possible, so you will probably want to swap your males out after a max of two years breeding so that you don't end up with a situation where one is breeding his granddaughters who are also his daughters or something.

I hope that all makes sense! Obviously, as mentioned the big advantage is that you avoid inbreeding, but of course it comes with the disadvantage that you need more space for multiple pens to keep your birds in, at least during the breeding season. It's not for everyone. But for me, since I went so many years not even being able to find more silkied Cochins, I wanted a setup that would allow me to breed them for a long time without needing to bring in new blood in.

(Also, sorry that took so long to write out )

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I have told myself, no more GCs, EVER, nope. I also don't want any more feed store chicks, but... I did buy 11, oops, last spring. I had a broody girl and she needed babies, but she was so scared of them it broke her from being broody then she went broody again 3 weeks later. I was so ticked off at her crazy jurassic chicken.

Ugh, broodies!! Further proof that chickens in general are masters of wrecking all your carefully laid plans

the SLW chicks I got are the ones who have been steadily laying so it was nice to have eggs all winter. My older girls took a deserved break for a few months. I got an egg each from my oldest 3 BAs yesterday ❤ Into the incubator they go tomorrow! Fizzy the EE x BAs, I'm hoping for some Blues!

Aww, that's good! And exciting about the babies!! Make sure you post pictures when they hatch

 

[fluffycrow]

So, basically clan breeding is a way of line breeding without nearly as much of a risk of reaching an inbreeding depression as a result. It's particularly a good way of keeping a rare breed and preventing issues from inbreeding if you simply cannot find unrelated birds to outcross to, but useful as well if you just don't want to outcross for one reason or another, like not wanting to risk introducing diseases or hidden genes that might set your line back.

How it works is you have a minimum of 3 'clans' of birds that are each kept separate from one another for breeding. You can have more clans than that, but you must have at least 3 for a proper clan breeding build. Each clan is assigned a marker, so like in my case I have my blue group, my red group, and my green group. All chicks hatched from each coop are given that marker to distinguish them from one another, so for me I put colored leg bands on my chicks so that I know which clan they came from.

Now, this is where it can be a bit tricky to wrap your head around. All pullets that hatch are returned to the clan they hatched from for breeding. That means when I hatch from my blue group, the best pullets go back into the blue group for breeding. However, all cockerels rotate to the next clan over for breeding, they never go back into their clan of origin. So continuing from the previous example, the best cockerels I hatch out of my blue group will instead move over to the green group for breeding.

Another important detail is that you always rotate your cockerels in the same direction. So using my clans again as an example, I have red, blue, and green clans and I rotate as follows:
Red -> Blue -> Green -> Red
And that's the direction I will always rotate with my cockerels. In doing so, this ensures that for the most part the closest the birds are related to one another are like second-cousins, essentially, instead of parent-offspring as in traditional line breeding, and that little bit of distance in relation to one another helps to prevent inbreeding depression from occurring down the line.

Now, especially when you're just starting out like I am and don't have many birds yet, sometimes you don't get a cockerel that's really good enough to replace your current male in a pen every year. So sometimes you will get a parent-offspring breeding in this setup because swapping out your current male for a fresh one in that case might set you back more than anything, even though you're putting the current male's daughters in the clan as well for breeding. This is okay, provided it doesn't always happen. Chickens are very resilient to inbreeding compared to other species. However, the goal with clan breeding is to have as little close inbreeding as possible, so you will probably want to swap your males out after a max of two years breeding so that you don't end up with a situation where one is breeding his granddaughters who are also his daughters or something.

I hope that all makes sense! Obviously, as mentioned the big advantage is that you avoid inbreeding, but of course it comes with the disadvantage that you need more space for multiple pens to keep your birds in, at least during the breeding season. It's not for everyone. But for me, since I went so many years not even being able to find more silkied Cochins, I wanted a setup that would allow me to breed them for a long time without needing to bring in new blood in.

(Also, sorry that took so long to write out )

This was so informative! Have I mentioned you're awesome at explaining stuff? From the looks of things, I can't attempt clan breeding right now, purely because I absolutely can't have two more males. Kolovos is my most important asset when it comes to shear experience, although Lady Gaga takes the cake for the most gifted male conformationaly and temperamentally. Big Red's my baby. So yeah, I can build more coops, but more males are a no no. I guess I could come up with a system where I'd hatch early in the year, and give away the extra males, raising up the next ones during the summer, so they'd be quiet when the people are here. In this case, my main question with clan breeding is, is it feasible in my case? I'm starting off with 4 birds, one clan, if you will. If the two other clans are from offspring of the first, does it have the same results?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

This was so informative! Have I mentioned you're awesome at explaining stuff?

Aww, thanks!

I try my best!

From the looks of things, I can't attempt clan breeding right now, purely because I absolutely can't have two more males. Kolovos is my most important asset when it comes to shear experience, although Lady Gaga takes the cake for the most gifted male conformationaly and temperamentally. Big Red's my baby. So yeah, I can build more coops, but more males are a no no. I guess I could come up with a system where I'd hatch early in the year, and give away the extra males, raising up the next ones during the summer, so they'd be quiet when the people are here.

Yeah, clan breeding requires at least three males of the breed being bred in that setup, so if your max is three and you already have some males of other breeds, it'd be tough to work around that. It sounds like what you're talking about here could work, though, if you really wanted to!

In this case, my main question with clan breeding is, is it feasible in my case? I'm starting off with 4 birds, one clan, if you will. If the two other clans are from offspring of the first, does it have the same results?

While not the most ideal, yes, you can build your clans from as few as a single pair of birds if necessary. When you think about it, most people who are getting into a breed start with a pair or trio, or they'll buy a batch of chicks or hatching eggs from a breeder. I'd wager to say most breeders do the more traditional line breeding; clan breeding is not overly common from what I've seen, simply because of how much more space it requires and because it does take a couple more generations to really see strong changes in your birds as a result of the rotation and more birds being involved in each generation. So most people getting into chicken breeding are going to be starting either with a small group of birds like you, or they're starting with birds that are very likely siblings or half-siblings anyway, regardless of the type of breeding program they're planning to use.

 

[fluffycrow]

Aww, thanks! View attachment 3761155 I try my best!




Yeah, clan breeding requires at least three males of the breed being bred in that setup, so if your max is three and you already have some males of other breeds, it'd be tough to work around that. It sounds like what you're talking about here could work, though, if you really wanted to!




While not the most ideal, yes, you can build your clans from as few as a single pair of birds if necessary. When you think about it, most people who are getting into a breed start with a pair or trio, or they'll buy a batch of chicks or hatching eggs from a breeder. I'd wager to say most breeders do the more traditional line breeding; clan breeding is not overly common from what I've seen, simply because of how much more space it requires and because it does take a couple more generations to really see strong changes in your birds as a result of the rotation and more birds being involved in each generation. So most people getting into chicken breeding are going to be starting either with a small group of birds like you, or they're starting with birds that are very likely siblings or half-siblings anyway, regardless of the type of breeding program they're planning to use.

Thanks, good to know! Maybe next year, or the year after that I'll try to set up a clan system for the serama. I'd like to keep my lines as closed off as possible, I don't want to risk disease. That said, I am making long term preparations to bring in some unrelated Tsouloufati blood in the next few years; not sure hoIw I'll do that safely

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I tend to prefer bringing new blood in via hatching eggs. Relatively few diseases transmit through the egg to chicks, and many of those only have a small percentage of transmission that's even smaller if the birds are not outwardly symptomatic as I'd hope they would be if I'm being sold eggs from them. You can even gently wash the eggs before setting them to make sure nothing is clinging to the shell that would infect the chicks upon hatch. This does not guarantee that you'll prevent all disease from getting through to your flock, but greatly increases your odds at least.

If that's simply not an option, the best you can do is a 4-6 week quarantine. Keep new birds 100 feet away and downwind from your current flock, or if that's not possible then keep them in an enclosed building that your current birds have no access to. For example, I quarantine new birds in my basement because I don't have any outbuildings that are predator secure and far enough away from my current flocks. Always tend to the new birds last, and change clothes and shoes between them and your current flock. I prefer to outright shower immediately after dealing with quarantine birds just to be as safe as possible. I also introduce a 'sacrificial' bird to quarantine after a couple weeks, a bird I already have around that I may or may not be keeping anyway like an extra cockerel, to see if they'll start showing symptoms from being exposed to the new birds for a couple weeks. This also exposes the new birds to anything your flock may have, and if the new bird is a solo bird then it now has a buddy to integrate with. Like hatching eggs, quarantine is not a guarantee that you'll avoid all diseases, and it's a pain in the neck to keep up for the full time, but you at least have a better chance at avoiding your flock being infected by something new if you do it properly.