Please help with diagnosis

[PoultryPedia]

Here's a summary of what I've read about Botulism, if it's helpful:

• Also called Limberneck, Bulbar Paralysis, Western Duck Sickness, Alkali Disease.
• Most species of birds are vulnerable.
• Cause: Eating certain rotten food (such as spoiled canned vegetables), contaminated maggots, or decaying carcasses or other substances.
• Symptoms: Unresponsiveness & sleepiness. Paralysis of legs & wings common in turkeys, ducks & pheasants; then limpness in neck (which may be the only muscle sign in chickens).
  • If amount eaten is too high, death will occur in 12-24 hours.
• Treatment:
  Within short time after eating poison: Activated charcoal (NOT regular charcoal) can help absorb poisons so they can be flushed from the bird's system. Epsom salts & potassium permanganate have been shown to help flush the bird's system. However, treatments vary greatly depending on source of poison & the listed items may be unsafe in some situations. See ASPCA Tips to Manage a Poison Emergency for more guidelines. (Note: If called, the pet poison phone service listed may charge $65).
  Later treatment: Botulism antitoxin injections are available. Research additional treatments, such as Selenium treatments, as well.

--------------------------------

Maybe you or your vet could get hold of a botulism antitoxin if you think that's the problem.

 

[PoultryPedia]

Here's another thread where other people posted some helpful info about Botulism & similar problems, also.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/207448/treating-botulism-updated-rip-spike

Update: I also just read that Selenium may be helpful in some cases, so you might do a search for more info on that, too.

 

[Waterfaery]

Thanks,

I'm still hoping it is botulism and not Marek's, but I'm not sure. If it is, she should make it at this stage without an antitoxin. I read that the antitoxin is extremely expensive, but I'll ask my vet when they're open again tomorrow.

I've been reading Nambroth's tube feeding links. The idea really scares me. In any case, we won't be able to get any supplies until tomorrow, as everything is closed here on Sunday, apart from supermarkets.

We made her some mash with her chicken pellets and water and she had some of it. She has been pecking at some of the other bits and pieces we've given her (cheese, corn and apple) but she doesn't seem to be able to take in very much. She has stood up a couple of times to eat the mash but she doesn't seem to have the energy to stay up for very long. She keeps hobbling to a new spot and then flopping down again. So we keep moving her food and water in front of her, wherever she is. After a while, she eats a tiny bit more and then moves again. She's extremely unstable when she moves and it's really upsetting to see, but at least she is getting up and down a bit. I don't think she's taking in nearly enough food or water. How much does she need in a day?

 

[cgmccary]

Very sorry for your troubles. It does not seem like Marek's I have experienced (and a lab confirmed the same) because with classic Marek's, debilitation is gradual -- first slightly unsteady on their feet for a few days, then over a week, two weeks, lose control of their legs . . . the bird eats normal with a good appetite & experiences no pain as can be discerned. This is not what you have going on (all this has transpired in a day or so for you). It seems everything gets attributed to Marek's. I would leave the Marek's idea / discussion.

This does sound like botulism (food poisoning). I have not read all the thread but also, I have seen this when their feed is bad (though it appears OK). . . if this has not been mentioned. I would discard the feed they were eating. Search Epsom salt flush (which is fairly easy) or squirt cool water in crop twice daily. Keep the bird in a cool place (i.e. not overly warm).

If already asked, then sorry, but Do they have access to any plants that might be poisonous?

 

[Waterfaery]

Thanks,

Yes, one of the first things we did was have a good look around at everything. They did have access to black nightshade but, from what we researched, the symptoms don't match. There was a hedgehog carcass in the compost heap so botulism was a likely possibility if it was any type of poisoning and it certainly seems like that could be what killed the first two.

However, Féileacán is only affected on one side and she seems to be holding her right leg in the typical Marek's position. But I hope you're right. The sudden onset immediately after the death of the other two just doesn't add up. I'm just very confused.

Whatever it is, I'm concerned about her intake of fluid and nutrition. She has had a small bit of yoghurt, but just a few pecks. Yesterday she gobbled up everything we gave her. She's pecking periodically today but not taking in very much. I've read that that can be a Marek's thing, too. Can anyone confirm that?

She's currently lying down with her head right down against her breast. She has been panting a bit too. I don't know what that means. It only started within the last hour.

 

[casportpony]

Very sorry for your troubles. It does not seem like Marek's I have experienced (and a lab confirmed the same) because with classic Marek's, debilitation is gradual -- first slightly unsteady on their feet for a few days, then over a week, two weeks, lose control of their legs . . . the bird eats normal with a good appetite & experiences no pain as can be discerned. This is not what you have going on (all this has transpired in a day or so for you). It seems everything gets attributed to Marek's. I would leave the Marek's idea / discussion.

This does sound like botulism (food poisoning). I have not read all the thread but also, I have seen this when their feed is bad (though it appears OK). . . if this has not been mentioned. I would discard the feed they were eating. Search Epsom salt flush (which is fairly easy) or squirt cool water in crop twice daily. Keep the bird in a cool place (i.e. not overly warm).

If already asked, then sorry, but Do they have access to any plants that might be poisonous?

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that's not true...

In addition to the "classic" form, I've seen *many* others.

Examples:

• Fine one day, can't walk the next, dead in three days even with tube feeding.
• Unsteady one day, on their side the next then dead in 24 hours.
• Fine one day, not eating the next, crop not clearing, dead in a week even with tube feeding, but able to walk the whole time.

Marek's *is* one of the leading causes of death that UC Davis sees in chickens. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is Marek's, and I really hope it's not, but all of the symptoms do match Marek's.

If this were my bird I would be tube feeding it just because I wouldn't want one to die from dehydration or starvation, which is usually what kills them, not the disease.

-Kathy

 

[Nambroth]

Very sorry for your troubles. It does not seem like Marek's I have experienced (and a lab confirmed the same) because with classic Marek's, debilitation is gradual -- first slightly unsteady on their feet for a few days, then over a week, two weeks, lose control of their legs . . . the bird eats normal with a good appetite & experiences no pain as can be discerned. This is not what you have going on (all this has transpired in a day or so for you). It seems everything gets attributed to Marek's. I would leave the Marek's idea / discussion.

Sometimes it goes this way, and sometimes they seem fine and then go downhill and pass within only 2-3 days. That happened with my roo, and he was confirmed Marek's via both tissue sample and PCR (DNA blood) testing. He also went off of feed the last two days. He would act interested, but then not actually eat. Not all birds with Marek's display similarly, sadly. Lesions on the sciatic nerve cause the paralysis, but organ failure is from lymphomas, and they can be slow or very aggressive, depending on many factors.

Thanks,

Yes, one of the first things we did was have a good look around at everything. They did have access to black nightshade but, from what we researched, the symptoms don't match. There was a hedgehog carcass in the compost heap so botulism was a likely possibility if it was any type of poisoning and it certainly seems like that could be what killed the first two.

However, Féileacán is only affected on one side and she seems to be holding her right leg in the typical Marek's position. But I hope you're right. The sudden onset immediately after the death of the other two just doesn't add up. I'm just very confused.

Whatever it is, I'm concerned about her intake of fluid and nutrition. She has had a small bit of yoghurt, but just a few pecks. Yesterday she gobbled up everything we gave her. She's pecking periodically today but not taking in very much. I've read that that can be a Marek's thing, too. Can anyone confirm that?

She's currently lying down with her head right down against her breast. She has been panting a bit too. I don't know what that means. It only started within the last hour.

The fact that she is getting up and moving around even a little is honestly encouraging. I really am hoping it was botulism toxin and it's just taking her a while to recover. It's possible!! Feed her whatever she will eat, especially things like the eggs you've been offering, which are packed with nutrition for her weak body. If you can get your hands on some live mealworms or crickets.. or similar feeder insect, you can try offering them. Even when my roo was dying, he tried to eat juicy mealworms.

You are right. Sometimes with Marek's birds will seem somewhat interested in feed, but will not 'connect' with it, or otherwise will peck and just seem to have no "appetite". You can see this with Marek's.. but also other illnesses, too, if the bird does not feel well. She is panting-- is it hot? Does she just seem too warm, or as if she is struggling to breathe well?

Again, I am not trying to scare you with the suggestion of Marek's. It may well not be Marek's, but it's just something you have to keep in mind, just in case.

Hoping the best for your girl. I'm hoping it's not Marek's. Botulism is scary, and I'm truly sorry you lost birds to it (possibly) but at least one can take steps to avoid it in the future.

 

[Waterfaery]

I've spent the last while sitting with her leaning up against me. It seems to have really helped. She has even spent quite a long time standing, sort of half leaning against me. I used a piece of apple as a spoon and hand fed her the mash. She's eaten most of it now. It was about 80g of feed with an equal volume of water. We also made a sort of apple paste with the food processor and managed to get her to have some of that, too, but not much. She also ate about 80% of the scrambled egg we made her this morning.

She's now standing up without support, although she still falls over when she tries to walk more than a few steps. She seems to be making the most of being able to stand up for now. She's even been preening and pecking at the ground, although she doesn't seem to realise there are no insects in the duvet that's under her. She's alert and interested in the bird noises outside the window. The sun has come out so I think I'll take her out for a short while and see how she feels on the grass.

I don't know how to tell when her crop is full. It's about 5cm in diameter. It feels firm until I press in and then it's soft and squishy like a sponge. Is that good? Do you think she will be ok without tube feeding if I can get her to keep eating the mash like that? Will that give her enough fluid? Also, does anyone know about the panting? It's eased off now, but she still has her beak open more than usual. Her skin also feels a bit warm to touch and I wonder if she has a fever.

 

[Waterfaery]

Thanks Nambroth,

She's just like your rooster sounds, she seems interested in foraging and eating but doesn't seem to be able. At least she's been taking it out of our hands.

No, it's not hot at all today, but she feels hot to touch.

 

[casportpony]

The amount of fluid they need to stay hydrated is about 30ml/kg every 6-8 hours. Do you have a kitchen scale you can weigh her on? That's how I can tell if they're getting enough to eat/drink.

A 5cm crop seems like it might be enough food, but it would be easier for me to say if you could tell me about what that is in ml or cc. If you can get her to eat and drink enough there's no reason to tube provided it's not stressing her out. Once one figures out how to tube it take less than 3 minutes to tube 120ml and it's way less stressful to both the person and the bird.

Not sure about the panting... two of mine are in an 80 degree room right now and don't pant even when it's 86 degrees.

-Kathy