Preaching to the choir... PICS

[dancingbear]

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Its what the Austrian Economists (no they are not all from Austria, its a school of economic thought) call the division of labor and it is essential in raising the average standard of living for all humans.......

Yes! Division of labor, thank you for supplying the term.

 

[pixie74943]

Quote:
Its what the Austrian Economists (no they are not all from Austria, its a school of economic thought) call the division of labor and it is essential in raising the average standard of living for all humans.......

Yes! Division of labor, thank you for supplying the term.

Isnt Division of Labour also a Marxism thing? But from Marxist perspective, there was the original division, where everyone was a craftsman, and an expert at their given trade (farming, blacksmith, baker, etc) but then what he witnessed in his lifetime, with the advent of factories. Instead of 1 expert creating something, 10 'peons' (my word, couldnt think of a better one) were involved in a small part of the making, the rest done by machinery. End result was lower product costs, but also lower quality and job satisfaction.

Anyway, to make that comment more 'thread relevant' Factory Chicken would be an example of this, large scale, cheap operation, but the workers need little practical knowledge. For example, they feed what comes out the food bag, fill waterers when they're empty, and the dispatching/plucking/processing is done at least in part by machinery. Whereas Farming (then and now) creates a higher quality product, but also requires more individual knowledge and attention and therefore higher prices.

Correct me If I'm wrong on my Marxism, I'm a little sleepy as I write this

 

[K-Chick]

Here's some good info on chicken farms. http://www.usaeggfarming.com/

 

[dancingbear]

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I suppose it is, but it's part of any social structure that doesn't expect each individual to do everything all alone. It pretty much just works out that way in any group of people living in proximity to each other. We use division of labor in the US. I don't know any country that doesn't. I mean, you wouldn't expect your doctor to fix your car, right? It's wonderful to be good at a number of things, and at least able to muddle through some others, but who can do everything? Nobody I've ever known.

Thus, you naturally get "division of labor".

It's just that for some reason, when people start trying to be more self reliant, (which is a good thing!) the concept of the "rugged individualist" comes up a lot, and suddenly people are thinking they need to do everything all by themselves. I'm just saying that's not really practical, we need to remember that people in all communities rely on each other for all sorts of things, and that's ok. We're all interconnected.

 

[highcountrychickens]

I dunno, I could make a saddle, harness and horseshoes, keep a garden, cows, chickens and whatnot ... if I didn't have internet or cable

To put it in really grossly simple terms, the idea of communism is based on the community concept - it took the thing deep in our hearts already and tried to enforce it - not good in a culture of beings that are ultimately competitive in their nature.

After harvesting two of my first flock, I will do everything in my power to buy birds that have been humanely raised and fed, but it isn't always easy. Many small farms that raise and process small batches of true free range happy birds, I would love to support, but they generally don't like to ship (for all kinds of reasons from regulations to environmental impact of shipping) Being in a very cold part of Wyoming, it's tough to find small farms that will do this. I'm thinking it sounds like a business that would be viable, in a health conscious community like this.

Anyway, thanks for posting these pics... helps to remind what is easy to forget ...

 

[pixie74943]

Quote:
I suppose it is, but it's part of any social structure that doesn't expect each individual to do everything all alone. It pretty much just works out that way in any group of people living in proximity to each other. We use division of labor in the US. I don't know any country that doesn't. I mean, you wouldn't expect your doctor to fix your car, right? It's wonderful to be good at a number of things, and at least able to muddle through some others, but who can do everything? Nobody I've ever known.

Thus, you naturally get "division of labor".

It's just that for some reason, when people start trying to be more self reliant, (which is a good thing!) the concept of the "rugged individualist" comes up a lot, and suddenly people are thinking they need to do everything all by themselves. I'm just saying that's not really practical, we need to remember that people in all communities rely on each other for all sorts of things, and that's ok. We're all interconnected.

I'm thinking from you're reply I didnt explain myself properly. Or I'm reading you wrong.. anywho, lets just pretend I didnt make sense and Try again.

A division of labor is great, means that I can pay someone to make me a table, cause If I did it would be pretty trashy. I can do a bit of carpentry, could probably make a table, but I'm not a carpenter, I'm a bit of a Jack-Of-Some-Trades.. master of none.

The kind of Divison you seem to be explaining, is where people are experts. I take my car to an expert ot get fixed. I get a carpenter to make my table. I pay a butcher to cut up my meat (my 'rents wouldn't let me butcher in the backyard

)

The kind I was attempting to discuss is a bit different. When people first made tables, they would head to the village carpenter, and he, being an expert, would make the table. By himself. From scratch.

When Marx was writing, it was the advent of factories, the production line. Where the carpenter would have taken 2 weeks to make your table, by himself, 10 people working on the production line could make 5 tables a day. However, they would make the same table over and over, each individual having one boring part of the task. Eg, person one would cut the legs to size, person 2 would shape them prettily, person 3 would make the top, etc etc.

Marx wrote about Factory work being soul sucking, no job satisfaction, and with factories, you make a cheaper, low quality product, and because you're workers need no experience to make these tables (they just operate machines) they can be easily replaced, therefore you dont have to pay them as well as that Individual Carpenter.

Did that make more sense? I agree someone trying to do everything themselves is not going to have the energy/brain space. But experts have been sacrificed in our society for the cheaper alternative of low-quality, production line products.

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

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Thanks for the link.

 

[foweler]

Isn't Division of Labor also a Marxism thing?

Absolutely not. Its an economic thing. Marx, like most political philosophers, cherry picked a great number of economic generalities while developing his manifesto. He was inclined to depict it in terms where a "rich capitalist" was exploiting "helpless" serfs.

The kind of Division you seem to be explaining, is where people are experts.

That's closer. It has to do with specialization more than being an expert though. Are you an expert in your specialty? Maybe you are but most people are just pretty good at what they do and some are outright bad. The bad ones that manage to stay employed usually have jobs that are somehow "protected" from being lost due to incompetence though.

I take my car to an expert to get fixed. I get a carpenter to make my table.

That's it right there, except for the expert part. The experts are designing your car, not fixing it.
If you had to do everything yourself just how many of today's luxuries would you have? Only what you had the time, the aptitude and the resources to build for yourself. I don't know about you but that would leave me lacking a whole lot of what I currently enjoy. Being a jack of many trades is a good thing though, especially if those skills are closely related to the barest of survival. A disaster (natural or political) will bring the value of those skills into focus. Only then do we find out what we REALLY need.
The division of labor (the very essence of trade), and more importantly the international division of labor (where was your TV made? Your car? The steel in your car?) has brought us the standard of living we are accustomed to. Some will say that is at the expense of those in foreign countries standards of living but it is protectionist politics (in so many different ways) and not the division of labor that is to blame for that.

When Marx was writing, it was the advent of factories, the production line.

In the early days of mass production those factories were controlled by a small group of people. They still are but today govt regulations (illicit govt-business syndication= fascism) create a protected environment for businesses to do business in (as opposed to being the only game in town like the first factories) that largely exudes the average start-up from gaining a foothold in the industry. This protected environment is exactly where the leverage (scarcity in job opportunity) to set low wages comes from. (It is also the source of cries for even more govt intervention- to cure a poisoning with ever more poison)
If anyone could enter the markets more competition would arise. That would mean more jobs. The price of labor would naturally be bid up as competing firms scrambled to fill positions. How could it not?


Mind you most high wage jobs today would not pay nearly as well but the resultant drop in prices across the board would make that irrelevant. Your grandfather didn't make nearly as much as you do but it was enough not only to live but his wife didn't have to work.(On average, your families mileage may have varied)
That general drop in prices is precisely what the division of labor accomplishes if left to work its magic unhindered. Its how it raises all standards of living.

But experts have been sacrificed in our society for the cheaper alternative of low-quality, production line products.

Not necessarily. Did you (or your parents if you are young) buy a Beta-max or a VHS? The Beta-max was, by all engineering standards, a superior product. The market (in one of the few cases where it is allowed to decide) chose to go with what could satisfy more people over the technically better product. Best isn't always measured in terms absolute quality.
Do you drive a Mercedes or a Hyundai (or even a Ford)? Same difference.

Marx wrote about Factory work being soul sucking, no job satisfaction, and with factories, you make a cheaper, low quality product, and because you're workers need no experience to make these tables (they just operate machines) they can be easily replaced, therefore you don't have to pay them as well as that Individual Carpenter.

Something of a moot point in a system where any employee, after having learned enough about the manufacturing process (this learning coming from the personal incentive that continuously propels him/her up the internal structure of the firm-if you don't want to try hard you get what sow) can openly compete with his/her (I hate PC) former employer. He/she can choose to accept a lower effective wage (return on investment) in order to price below the former employer thus gaining market-share. (This is the reduction in general prices mentioned above manifesting)
And don't forget about the quality of those machines. They keep improving (by the hard work of the designers and builders thereof) and the products they produce improve in quality as the consumer price drops. Could you afford a hand made car? How do you think the consistency of quality would be?
If you want to undo the division of labor just to protect a given trades expected wage or to be nostalgic about craftsmanship (I kind of miss that myself) the price is the lowering of our standard of living- worldwide.

Its an economic thing and our feelings about it don't matter. It is what it is.​

 

[azrc]

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My chickens like to help out when one of them turns into dinner. Of course some of them just know they'll never be in that situation

 

[Shoshana]

Wow! We just bought our mini farm (YAYYYY!) and moved, so I haven't been on much in the last couple weeks... last time I checked, this thread was 2 pages, not 11... thanks for all of the amazing posts and advice everyone! My husband has always wanted land, but I was raised a city slicker and until we moved here I had never really considered homesteading as an option. However, between the economic worries and seeing the way industrial chicken farming works in this area first hand, such as with those pictures I took, we're really motivated to become as self sufficient and sustainable as is reasonable for us. I like the idea of trading my produce for others'... is there some sort of organization that coordinates that sort of thing, or is it more of a 'post on Craigslist' idea?

I know this is slightly off topic, but the acreage we bought has a lot of overgrown areas, so I've been looking into getting some goats to eat those areas down and for their dairy (ice cream, fudge, cheese, milk, etc.). Do any of you know if there are any common concerns on raising goats and chickens together, in terms of disease issues or chickens eating spilled goat feed (or vice versa)? They'll be housed separately, but the chickens will be completely free range during the day and the goats with supervision until we can get a higher property line fence up. Also, any chance that goats will help deter hawks? We're thinking of getting a guardian dog, but I'd like the flock established before we get a puppy, so the chooks are full grown, can defend themselves, and (I'm hoping) less likely to become the puppy's chew toy until the dog is trained.

Thanks again for everyone's posts... let's please keep it friendly!