Problem making decision

[Nambroth]

Oh Karen, I'm so sorry about your little rooster. What a terrible choice to have to make. I feel you did right by him, but I'm sorry that it happened.

I spent most of the morning researching and I feel like I'm even more clueless than when I started. I had been led to believe that PCR was the end-all test for this and now I am not so sure. Did you know there are different PCR testing methods? I didn't. I am again feeling like I chose the wrong career...!

From this page, which I just found today for the first time: http://www.aaap.info/frequently-asked-questions-on-viral-tumor-diseases

In positive cases: A positive PCR result means the DNA of the specified pathogen was found within the provided sample type. In most cases this means the pathogen is likely the cause of disease as well. However, PCR can not differentiate between live and dead organisms, and a few pathogens are carried by hosts without necessarily causing disease like symptoms (Equine Herpesvirus-2 and EHV-5 are good examples). Based on clinical signs and symptoms, it is at the discretion of the veterinarian to decide if the pathogen is the cause of disease. Please see question # 13 in regards to vaccine detection.
In negative cases: A negative PCR result can mean a number of things: 1.) no infection, 2.) the sample provided is free of the pathogen(s) requested, 3.) the pathogen(s) may be present, but at a quantity below our assays’ detection limit (about 2-10 copies of a gene), 4.) the pathogen is a rare mutation that is not detected by our current PCR assays.

Regarding the various tests listed in your book for diagnosing Marek's, I suspect that it was pointing to the fact that any one test by itself may not be enough to pinpoint Marek's as the sole infection-- active or latent.

I feel like I will need to take a few hours this week and re-write parts of my FAQ......

 

[seminolewind]

I got the same feeling on those printed pages. It would take accumulating the results of 3 different tests, not just one. So I would think that a blatent paralysis and/or cloudy eye would be a "yes" to go forward and test for tumors, then a pcr. Yes?

If a chicken just wastes away due to supposed Marek's, how would that be picked up with a histology and pcr? Does wasting have internal signs?

Nambroth, just be happy that there is something to update.

You should NOT have picked a different career

 

[seminolewind]

With my roo, I thought it was odd that for over a year he had periods of bright green poop where I thought the end was near, then he would eat for a while and have regular poop. He never really gained weight. But I wonder if anyone else has had a supposed Marek's chicken that just held on for so long. I got my hopes up a few times. Even the vet said he gave him a dose for 10 pounds, and he didn't die right away even with having the prior sedative. Tough bird.

 

[Nambroth]

Thank you-- I still feel bad for you and your roo. When I had to have my hen put down in July (she was full of ovarian cancer) she also didn't pass easily. It would have been cruel of me to keep her around, she was very likely experiencing pain and was already going downhill, but when she had such a will to live it really broke my heart. It always makes one second-guess these things. I still get teary thinking about it.

Quote: That seems like a logical progression. It seems like in my limited experience, a vet or person doing the testing pretty much looks at: 1) Does the bird have one or more of these symptoms? a)Ataxia b)neurological issues c)tumor growth/lymphomas d)irregular pupil/grey eye/irregular eye e)follicle irregularities such as growths
Neoplastic tumors are always checked for in necropsy by any skilled technician or vet. Unfortunately Marek's isn't the only cause of these, so they will further look at other factors if tumors are found.
If Marek's is suspect, then many labs/vets will run the PCR test (either in house or for most labs they might have to send it out). It seems that if tumors are found, they will send samples of this tissue as well as other tissues or blood. When Trousers, my first cochin roo, died, the vet found lymphomas in his organs, and sent samples of the lymphomas and surrounding organ tissue for PCR (all tested positive)..
So based on the printed pages and my experience, the vet or tech will take all of the 'clues' and make an educated guess. The only thing that would trump an educated guess would be if PCR came back as positive for MDV-1 on sampled lymphatic tissues. That is pretty much telling! There's not a way to get a "false positive" on that if testing only one bird.

I think that most places won't do PCR testing on a bird unless there is some "sign" of Marek's. Or if the owner requests it.

Quote: I am not clear on this.... I wish I knew. I strongly suspect that most of the time our "wasting away" birds are simply immuno-supressed, and a secondary problem (or MANY secondary problems) set in because the immune system is shot by Marek's. When this is not the case and they waste from slow degenerative problems such as their digestive systems going 'bad' due to Marek's I would think it would be because of degenerative activity in the digestive tract. Marek's can cause irregularities in the gizzard, proventriculus, and crop as we know. The problem would then be, can the vet or tech doing the necropsy tell if the irregularities are due to Marek's, or another disease? Possibly not, without other "clues". And PCR may not be able to sequence enough of the Marek's DNA to give a definitive answer, either....

Quote: My current roo is a strange case. He developed full paralysis of his legs when he was 6.5 months old-- surely I thought it was Marek's. He was vaccinated, but exposed to my current flock, which is the same flock my rooster that died (with the positive PCR for Marek's). We took a blood sample at the vet and she sent it off for Marek's PCR testing. We almost considered putting him down, because usually once they are that sick there isn't much hope. His blood test was bad, too-- full of blast lymphs and such that indicate that he very likely was experiencing lymphomas! For whatever reason, and partially thanks to my friends making a surprise appearance at the vet office (it was my birthday), we decided to take him home and see if he would live. I'm glad we did. He did live, and when the Marek's test came back negative, we did a series of other tests including lead testing and checking for other common diseases that could cause ataxia/paralysis. All came back negative. That started me on this crazy quest to try and figure out if I could have had a "false negative" PCR test for Marek's. He walks, now, but is very stiff. He seems to not be in pain and enjoys life so I let him be himself, and it has been 7 months since he was sick and I thought he would die!
You can see how he walks, here... he is 'stilted' and walks forward on his toes, instead of the pad of his feet as normal chickens do. He has to sit down somewhat frequently as he just runs out of stamina easily, and he sits at the end of the video. (warning-- he crows! It's loud)

 

[tridentk9]

Article on one reason for vaccine breaks. Free to join site. http://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-i...emia-virus-immunosuppression-t3238/165-p0.htm

List of articles, videos on this site by vet who wrote immunology book. http://en.engormix.com/mbr-42868/karel-schat I think he's at Cornell.

 

[Suzie]

This is the most heart rending post...so many of us have tried so very hard to help our beloved chickens to have a quality of life that surpasses all expectations of the inevitable..

We can achieve so much with the help of our friends here on BYC...quality of life is of the utmost importance for our charges...sadly we also know that despite all that is available to help our chickens we face the prospect of their lives ending...be it through ill health or the ageing process...

It is so hard to say goodbye....

My thoughts are with you seminolewind... as are my thoughts for Nambroth with Trousers .... and for each and every one of you who have loved and lost loved ones....our strength lies in the knowledge that we have done all that we can as humans to better their quality of life and acknowledge when it is time to say a huge thank you for enhancing our lives...they live on in our hearts!

Thanks to each and every one of you who have contributed to the Mareks' issues....an enormous help to me...hopefully one day Mareks disease will be a distant memory of a disease that has a cure...we strive for that goal.

With tears in my eyes for you all...

You are what this site is all about!

 

[hennible]

That was very well said. Here's hoping I never deal with Mareks personally but if I do, I have the wealth of knowledge provided by you all and your experiences. Thanks for sharing all the information and advocating for the birds.

 

[seminolewind]

One good thing comes out of all the bad: being with people who understand how attached we are to our pets (chickens), and no, they are not worthless and replaceable.

Suzie, you forgot losing Maman- she broke your heart as well.

Hennible, I agree, it's a good thing that the knowledge accumulates somewhere. We all have a never ending interest in the health of chickens.

Tridentk9- excellent site! It's great when somebody lists a site that others haven't seen.

Finally got my sprayer, so I'll be outside with my Virkon S. The literature says mix 10 grams per liter to make 100:1. For Marek's mix 20 grams into 1 liter . You can spray it on wood and cement.. I spray the dirt too. Can't hurt. So in a gallon sprayer I figure about 80 grams per gallon, which is roughly 3 ounces per gallon. So a rough 1/3 cup of powder? (Casportpony, don't hurt me!!!!)

 

[Nambroth]

Some of my family members get irate when they learn that I've taken chickens to a vet before. Chickens! They sputter. As if a loved animal is worth more than another just because of social reasons. So I understand. Each of my birds are special and my heart breaks when they go before their time.

Tridentk9, great links, thank you!

I've updated the FAQ with my tentative knowledge of diagnosis. It's a work in progress.

 

[tridentk9]

Tridentk9, great links, thank you!


I've updated the FAQ with my tentative knowledge of diagnosis. It's a work in progress.

Great! I hope it helps.

Have you considered having one of the poultry/immunology vets studying Marek's go over your FAQs? It's worth asking.