Question on GMO feed

[chickengeorgeto]

Wow...do you work with Monsanto?

Monsanto is laughing all the way to the bank. Regardless whether you eat organic food, non GMO food or GMO foods it is all produced with the help of pesticides and other technologies sold by companies like Monsanto.

40% of organic food sold in America is produced in China where the living standards are much lower and the work ethic is very much higher. Do you honestly think that Chinese organic farmers sit in the middle of their fields all day listing for the small grawing sounds made by insect pests feeding on their crops and then jump up like a Choi Lin monk and beat the guilty worm or beetle to death with a hoe handle? I think that they spray a long list of approved (or even non approved) insecticides on their organic crops or crop land and I doubt that DE or hot pepper is one of them.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: While there may be an "increase" of herbicides NOW used in RR crops, over what WAS used earlier in RR crops, it's still FAR LESS than what is STILL used in conventional crops for weed control.

There are always "concerns"
That doesn't mean it's some huge problem, and for now BT works quite well, with NO PROVEN harmful effects

The WSU study is somewhat misleading, in that it doesn't make allowances for the number of ACRES planted each year, but only gives that amount of herbicides used.
It also doesn't explain the while Roundup use may have increased, the use of STRONGER, more dangerous herbicides has greatly decreased

http://news.cahnrs.wsu.edu/2012/10/...rmance-of-major-ge-crops-new-wsu-study-shows/

 

[pbjls]

While there may be an "increase" of herbicides NOW used in RR crops, over what WAS used earlier in RR crops, it's still FAR LESS than what is STILL used in conventional crops for weed control.

There are always "concerns"
That doesn't mean it's some huge problem, and for now BT works quite well, with NO PROVEN harmful effects

The WSU study is somewhat misleading, in that it doesn't make allowances for the number of ACRES planted each year, but only gives that amount of herbicides used.
It also doesn't explain the while Roundup use may have increased, the use of STRONGER, more dangerous herbicides has greatly decreased

http://news.cahnrs.wsu.edu/2012/10/...rmance-of-major-ge-crops-new-wsu-study-shows/

the increase is in overall use of herbicides and that increase is driven by HT crops. It is the use of these products on HT crops that has created the stronger tollerance for herbicides in the weeds. Non gmo farmers can't use lots more herbicides because there crops are not resistant to the herbicides like the GMO varities are. It would kill their crop. As a result most use as littlle as possible, and utlize mechanical means and cover crops to fight this battle. Or switch to gmo which means more herbicides.

the concerns about the pest following a similar path as the weeds is real. Even mansanto now wants farmers to plant 20% non gmo on their farms hoping to slow the progress of resistant bugs by deluting their gene pool with bugs not exposed to the BT crops.

you did not address the fact that there is no answer for the fact the after modification there is proven mutation that can not be predicted or prevented.

And that still leaves this. I don't like it. I don't trust it. I should be able to make that choice for myself and the attempts to hyde it are almost as incidious as the problems I feel they create. You can make your choice but I should get to make mine.

 

[Spifflove]

40% of organic food sold in America is produced in China where the living standards are much lower and the work ethic is very much higher. Do you honestly think that Chinese organic farmers sit in the middle of their fields all day listing for the small grawing sounds made by insect pests feeding on their crops and then jump up like a Choi Lin monk and beat the guilty worm or beetle to death with a hoe handle? I think that they spray a long list of approved (or even non approved) insecticides on their organic crops or crop land and I doubt that DE or hot pepper is one of them.

This is a real real problem. Because Chinese "organic" means they could be using pesticides passing it as organic or worse yet growing food on a toxic dump. Always read the bar code. If you see 69 in the front of the code do not buy it. Domesitic will have 45, though that does not mean they aren't hiding Chinese junk in the product.

I think China bans GMO but then again you just can't trust what you are getting. Avoid unfermented soy because of its estrogen-like effects.

And most of the store bought applejuice and grapejuice in this country is contaminated with arsenic from chinese pesticides. Apples have to be organic and American.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Quote:

several things here.
1... hybrid and gmo are not the same thing....
2... I should get to choose what chance I take by getting to know what is in the product.
3... have cause resistence in weeds and an increase in herbicides used.
4.... while BT crops have so far shown a small decrease in pesticide use...
... it still remains a large concern that the pests will catch up just as the weeds have done....

5... there has not been a release of the studies on how the modifications will mutate as subsiquent generations of gmo seeds are used....

1. hybrid and gmo are not the same thing...."

I never claimed that they were. I only compared the GMO revolution in food production to the hybrid seed revolution. You have tried to claim that I did to compare apples to pomegranates or hinted that I did. It isn't so. To say I did is a red herring. In fact I went out of my way to point out that we don’t know yet how GMOs will affect the amount of food produced long term, except for the food that GMOs save from insect pests.

2... I should get to choose what chance I take by getting to know what is in the product....

You are able to chose what is in your food. I see food at the grocery all the time that claims that it is not produced using GMOs ingredients or growth hormones. Admit it, the intent of the anti GMO campaign is to force me to only buy and eat the food that the anti-GMO lobby wants to force on me or on the rest of the country, mostly for purely political reasons.

3... have cause resistence in weeds and an increase in herbicides used....

Your doing it again, see my apple to pomegranate remark that appears above.

Herbicides are not insecticides so they can't be compared, even though some seem to want to lump all pesticides in the same basket and toss them along with all humanity over the cliff and into a new dark age. Monsanto has allowed its paten on RoundUp Ready soybeans to lapse. But Monsanto has a new soybean Varity that is used with a different herbicide so they are on top of any resistence that has or that will develop in weeds.

To further clarify, antibiotics and DE both kill their target species with the same action, they attack the exterior walls of the living target organism. If you use enough DE and use it long enough while selecting your breeding stock wisely, you can breed a chicken mite that bullets will bounce off.

4.... while BT crops have so far shown a small decrease in pesticide use...

see my apple to pomegranate remark that appears above.

You are comparing insectcides to pesticides to herbicides again, please specify which you are referring to when you use the boiler plate term “pesticides.”

This is untrue. BT cotton has gone from as many as 11 applications of very strong insecticides a year to ZERO, ZIP, NADA insecticide applications each year. That is a 100% reduction in insecticide use. To go back to the bad old days like some advocate would mean a 1,100% increase in cotton pesticide use. Is this what you want?

5... there has not been a release of the studies on how the modifications will mutate as subsiquent generations of gmo seeds are used....

Nor were there any studies that showed how einkorn wheat would one day mutate into the wheat that we know and love today or how that wheat would affect human obesity rates.

If there had been scientific studies 4 or 5 thousand years ago about the effects of the einkorn mutations on today’s wheat it is very likely that no improvement would have ever been made or even attempted. That would make dentists happy because eating crackers made from a no gluten or low gluten wheat like einkorn is still a leading cause of broken and missing teeth.

But in my humble opinion science and the study of same is not the goal of the anti-GMO crowd. The true goal is to cut the legs out from under science like that champion of science William Jennings Bryant attempted at the Tennessee Monkey Trial.

The random transfer of DNA or genes from plant to plant or from plant to animal or vise-versa must be very difficult or else strawberries would now be growing on stalks of wheat or Angus cows would be giving Scotch whiskey instead of milk.

Returning to the intended purpose of this forum, 80 years ago it required almost 6 pounds of chicken feed to produce one pound of chicken hanging in the butchers' shop window. Thanks to genetics and intensive breeding programs it now only requires 1.9 pounds of chicken food to produce one pound of human chicken food in the display case in a modern grocery store.

Hint, look up what "New York Dressed" means as it pertains to chickens, and no it isn’t the guy in a tux and top hat on the cover of the New Yorker Magazine. The efficiency of modern poultry may be much higher than the 1.9 to 1 # ratio above. No Virgina, Wal mark doesn't sell GMO chicken.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

This is a real real problem. Because Chinese "organic" means they could be using pesticides passing it as organic or worse yet growing food on a toxic dump. Always read the bar code. If you see 69 in the front of the code do not buy it. Domesitic will have 45, though that does not mean they aren't hiding Chinese junk in the product.

I think China bans GMO but then again you just can't trust what you are getting. Avoid unfermented soy because of its estrogen-like effects.

And most of the store bought applejuice and grapejuice in this country is contaminated with arsenic from chinese pesticides. Apples have to be organic and American.

The arsenic in apple juice is a natural occurring form of the metal or semi-metal and like it or not this arsenic is 100% natural. Just like the cyanide found in peach pits. To return to chickens, strychnine is a powerful natural poison also derived from seeds like the arsenic or cyanide mentioned above, but when given to chickens strychnine is a tonic that increases chickens' appetites. This in no way means that I want a big dose of any of these three poisons but it does mean that we need to look at the total picture before we begin shouting, waving our arms and pointing fingers.

 

[Spifflove]

The arsenic in apple juice is a natural occurring form of the metal or semi-metal and like it or not this arsenic is 100% natural. Just like the cyanide found in peach pits. To return to chickens, strychnine is a powerful natural poison also derived from seeds like the arsenic or cyanide mentioned above, but when given to chickens strychnine is a tonic that increases chickens' appetites. This in no way means that I want a big dose of any of these three poisons but it does mean that we need to look at the total picture before we begin shouting, waving our arms and pointing fingers.

You seem to be saying because cyanide naturally exists in pits and apple cores that we discard that you should sprinkle arsenic on our children's plate and like it? And to say otherwise is alarmist? Yeah that sounds reasonable to me.

 

[2manychkns]

I eat apricot seeds all the time (it's a cancer killer and keeps my cancer at bay) and I'm not dead. The kind of cyanide in these seeds does not kill humans -- nothing has ever proved that it kills humans. As for chickens, it is a naturally occurring substance and animals eat in nature what they need when they can find it. As for cyanide in apricot pits, you can research worldwithoutcancer.org. I know that doesn't deal with chickens, but your comment about putting it on children's plates necessitated this comment.

Not meaning to offend anyone -- just wanted to let you know my personal experience has been.

 

[pbjls]

Quote:
1. hybrid and gmo are not the same thing...."

I never claimed that they were. I only compared the GMO revolution in food production to the hybrid seed revolution. You have tried to claim that I did to compare apples to pomegranates or hinted that I did. It isn't so. To say I did is a red herring. In fact I went out of my way to point out that we don’t know yet how GMOs will affect the amount of food produced long term, except for the food that GMOs save from insect pests.

2... I should get to choose what chance I take by getting to know what is in the product....

You are able to chose what is in your food. I see food at the grocery all the time that claims that it is not produced using GMOs ingredients or growth hormones. Admit it, the intent of the anti GMO campaign is to force me to only buy and eat the food that the anti-GMO lobby wants to force on me or on the rest of the country, mostly for purely political reasons.

3... have cause resistence in weeds and an increase in herbicides used....

Your doing it again, see my apple to pomegranate remark that appears above.

Herbicides are not insecticides so they can't be compared, even though some seem to want to lump all pesticides in the same basket and toss them along with all humanity over the cliff and into a new dark age. Monsanto has allowed its paten on RoundUp Ready soybeans to lapse. But Monsanto has a new soybean Varity that is used with a different herbicide so they are on top of any resistence that has or that will develop in weeds.

To further clarify, antibiotics and DE both kill their target species with the same action, they attack the exterior walls of the living target organism. If you use enough DE and use it long enough while selecting your breeding stock wisely, you can breed a chicken mite that bullets will bounce off.

4.... while BT crops have so far shown a small decrease in pesticide use...

see my apple toCremark that appears above.

You are comparing insectcides to pesticides to herbicides again, please specify which you are referring to when you use the boiler plate term “pesticides.”

This is untrue. BT cotton has gone from as many as 11 applications of very strong insecticides a year to ZERO, ZIP, NADA insecticide applications each year. That is a 100% reduction in insecticide use. To go back to the bad old days like some advocate would mean a 1,100% increase in cotton pesticide use. Is this what you want?

5... there has not been a release of the studies on how the modifications will mutate as subsiquent generations of gmo seeds are used....

Nor were there any studies that showed how einkorn wheat would one day mutate into the wheat that we know and love today or how that wheat would affect human obesity rates.

If there had been scientific studies 4 or 5 thousand years ago about the effects of the einkorn mutations on today’s wheat it is very likely that no improvement would have ever been made or even attempted. That would make dentists happy because eating crackers made from a no gluten or low gluten wheat like einkorn is still a leading cause of broken and missing teeth.

But in my humble opinion science and the study of same is not the goal of the anti-GMO crowd. The true goal is to cut the legs out from under science like that champion of science William Jennings Bryant attempted at the Tennessee Monkey Trial.

The random transfer of DNA or genes from plant to plant or from plant to animal or vise-versa must be very difficult or else strawberries would now be growing on stalks of wheat or Angus cows would be giving Scotch whiskey instead of milk.

Returning to the intended purpose of this forum, 80 years ago it required almost 6 pounds of chicken feed to produce one pound of chicken hanging in the butchers' shop window. Thanks to genetics and intensive breeding programs it now only requires 1.9 pounds of chicken food to produce one pound of human chicken food in the display case in a modern grocery store.

Hint, look up what "New York Dressed" means as it pertains to chickens, and no it isn’t the guy in a tux and top hat on the cover of the New Yorker Magazine. The efficiency of modern poultry may be much higher than the 1.9 to 1 # ratio above. No Virgina, Wal mark doesn't sell GMO chicken.

despite all of your rant and claiming I have brought a red hering in to this discussion, you are the one that has tried to introduce seed development through cross breeding. You brought up chicken cross breeding. you brought up william bryant. you brought up politics. you claim I am someone against science. you even brought up apples and pomegranates several times. non of these things have anything to do with science, much less promote honest debate or dialogue.

what you have not done is address any of the facts. herbicide use has increased as a direct result of HT crops. There is a growing concern even among the producers of BT crops that some pest may develope a restence just as weeds have done to the HT crops. It is a fact that the forced modifications are causing mutations that can not be predicted or controled. It is a fact the the gmo lobby is trying to get their products listed as the same as non gmo products which would take away my right to choose.

and then you hit the evil on the head when you said...

"Monsanto has allowed its paten on RoundUp Ready soybeans to lapse. But Monsanto has a new soybean Varity that is used with a different herbicide so they are on top of any resistence that has or that will develop in weeds."

here is the rub. it only works if you buy from monsanto. the new weeds and potential new pests will go after any field whether you use gmo seed or not.

I fear that the goal is to create weeds and bugs that current remmedies can not keep up with. then no one will have a choice, but Monsanto will have the answer. You may want a faceless giant in control of the food supply of most of the world, but I just want to raise my animals and purchase clean local veggies that are grown with out the aid of a science that I do not trust run by a company that I do not trust.

I am curious about what fuels your passion for this science.

 

[hemet dennis]

despite all of your rant and claiming I have brought a red hering in to this discussion, you are the one that has tried to introduce seed development through cross breeding. You brought up chicken cross breeding. you brought up william bryant. you brought up politics. you claim I am someone against science. you even brought up apples and pomegranates several times. non of these things have anything to do with science, much less promote honest debate or dialogue.

what you have not done is address any of the facts. herbicide use has increased as a direct result of HT crops. There is a growing concern even among the producers of BT crops that some pest may develope a restence just as weeds have done to the HT crops. It is a fact that the forced modifications are causing mutations that can not be predicted or controled. It is a fact the the gmo lobby is trying to get their products listed as the same as non gmo products which would take away my right to choose.

and then you hit the evil on the head when you said...

"Monsanto has allowed its paten on RoundUp Ready soybeans to lapse. But Monsanto has a new soybean Varity that is used with a different herbicide so they are on top of any resistence that has or that will develop in weeds."

here is the rub. it only works if you buy from monsanto. the new weeds and potential new pests will go after any field whether you use gmo seed or not.

I fear that the goal is to create weeds and bugs that current remmedies can not keep up with. then no one will have a choice, but Monsanto will have the answer. You may want a faceless giant in control of the food supply of most of the world, but I just want to raise my animals and purchase clean local veggies that are grown with out the aid of a science that I do not trust run by a company that I do not trust.

I am curious about what fuels your passion for this science.

Do you know who owns Monsanto ?
I have to wonder what fuels your passion against a company that you probably know little about.