Recessive wheaten question

[gallorojo]

The dominant vs. recessive white issue in the cubas is a tricky one. Generally, an oriental type gamefowl "ought" not be dominant white. Dominant white is typically found in white leghorns, cornish crosses, red pyle moderns, and some other red pyle gamefowl, OEG and American for example. My understanding is that the original Cuba whites were "sports" out of wheatens-certainly this implies recessive white. Some of my fellow breeders have gotten results that clearly show they have recessive whites. My whites however, without doubt, are carrying both dominant and recessive white, and I suspect some other people's are as well. I will not conjecture here who, or how, or when the dominant white was added, but some surely have it as well. My breeding results this year with whites x whites has given me pure whites, red pyles, brown reds, possibly blacks, and het dominant white speckled/spotty whites. I got one chick with the exact smoky down color like Saladin posted as well, that has turned out all white. Some of my whites have hatched yellow, some have hatched white, one hatched smoky grey.

Cubakid, didn't you have some smokey grey whites last year?

 

[Henk69]

recessive whites are solid white, not red pyle marked.
There can be red leakage but not to that extend.

I don't see any columbian too, and indeed the hackle markings are not due to the columbian gene.

 

[saladin]

My Whites:

White Cubalayas disappeared for somewhere between 20 and 30 years from the US. Then from one of my strain crosses I received a White Cuban.

I have never been able to produce a Red Pyle with my Whites back to Wheatens in one generation as can be done with Dominate White. It has always taken me two to three generations to do it. Thus, I have always assumed my white to be recessive (nick said 'heterz dominate white: which would work too).

I actually made my Black Cubalayas with the original White Cuban cock I had. I bred him to a Black Shamo hen and selected for type and color. From these matings I have not received any White Cubalayas: not even dirty ones. I have periodically received one, naturally, when I breed back the White Cubalayas.
I also had the first Black Cubalayas in the States after old man Twisselmans disappeared. The sorry old cuss probably killed them. Said he gave them to somebody but I could never find them. He was not good for the breed!!!!

You wouldn't believe where the blue came from if I told you; so, I'll just keep my mouth shut on that one. lol. It was not an Andalusian.

I always take the best path I can find to get me to where I want to go.

 

[saladin]

Though Dave K and Craig Russell can give the best information on Cubalayas and the different strains, I have collected a relative bit of it myself; primarily with their help.

Mr Finch of Redding always used stippled hens with his BBR Cubalayas and even showed them: because he liked the stippled coloration better than the wheaten. He claimed that his Cubalayas had always thrown both and that he selected for the stippled.

John Castignetti's Duckwings would throw stippled hens. His Duckwings came from Danny Padgett's father in Lake City, FL.

Both the White and Black Cubalayas were said to have been 'sports' for the Wheatens. My Whites were, but I made the Blacks. I also made the Blues.

The Blue that I used acts unusual in it's original breed. In the original breed it only appears in the hens. If a blue hen is bred to a black cock then only the pullets will be blue never a stag. It is also not laced; but obviously not self-blue either. A sex-link Blue??? Others have claimed as such.

The Blue has changed somewhat in the Cubalays because I have bred it to Whites, Blacks, Duckwings and Red Pyles: it now comes more laced, most often, but not always. Go back and look at that Blue Duckwing Cock I posted: almost no lacing is to be seen. It also now comes in the cocks too, but not very many: obviously not completely sex-linked. Though it did take a few generations to appear in the cocks.

I've been breeding the Blues and Blacks together for several years now. In that time I've had one Blue cock and he died. I think there is another one this year. From these matings I hatched around 75 chicks.....WITH ONE STAG POSSIBLE THAT IS BLUE...them ain't good odds.

 

[saladin]

Cubalayas act differently than other Orientals that are Wheaten. They also act differently than Wheaten as seen in OEGs.
This could be caused by modifiers, restrictors, or the fact that it is indeed a different Wheaten.


Genetics is an exact science when conducted on paper. Once you apply it in the barnyard things get a bit difficult: especially with Orientals and Games. These breeds have so many colorations in their background that it can be hard to segregate it all out.

I know you fellows love to try to figure this all out: and you do a really good job. But I did learn a long time ago that the power of observation in the breed pens will get you a long way. I enjoy reading the genetic books, but I like to watch those little chicks develop and confound me too.

Julia, Shamolady, repeatedly hammered in my head "Color means nothing." I guess I bought into that just a wee-bit.......Although, I do love BLUE!!!

 

[saladin]

Meant to add, I'm really enjoying y'alls speculations.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
you can bet we are also enjoying to hear how facinating and different are Orientals and cubalayas...

 

[tadkerson]

When I referred to andalusian, I meant a type of blue; not that you used andalusians in the cross.

Tim

 

[saladin]

Quote:
I understand Tim. I also refer to laced blue as andalusian blue. I'd have to say that is what I'm breeding for in the Cubalayas, but the original hen was an even slate blue not andalusian blue. I didn't have that at the time in any of my Orientals, but I do now!

 

[gallorojo]

This has been a lot of fun and very educational so far!! Thanks to all the participants!

There are a few things I want to discuss-

1) Red pyle-recessive white. I know Saladin has said here, and before, that red pyle cubalayas can be made from what seems to be recessive white in 2-3 generations. I was told the same thing this spring by Mr. Jim Zook. I had said I would make red pyles with my new white cockerel, and he told me it would not happen in the F1, it would take 2-3 generations. So, here we have 2 very well regarded poultrymen telling me the same thing, so, I am inclined to trust them!! Certainly their experience beats my own 10 times over!! What I am wondering here, is how can this be? I don't doubt real life experience vs. Textbook, but, what is going on? Can "cubalaya" wheaten react somehow with white(s) to produce odd results? I have birds, as do others, that are white with some black flecking/smut. I interpret that as het. dominant white, but, could recessive wheaten produce a similar look somehow? Maybe we are dealing with birds that are het/split for dominant white, and pure for recessive white in some cases? I really don't know?

I do know that cubakid made some red pyles in one generation this year, but my few came out of white x white crosses...

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2) Brown red and wheaten The brown red cubalayas were developed from wheatens, actually by simply breeding good wheatens to good wheatens over a number of years. I trust Saladin and Mr Drowns that this is how it was done. I can't figure out how it could happen though!! No wheaten can " cover up" brown red, so a bird that looks like a good wheaten is not carrying brown red. So, are the cubalaya brown reds genetically different from the regular brown reds, ala recessive white vs. dominant white? Or, does"cubalaya" wheaten just make brown red ( birchen ER) act differently?

3) Chick down The previous 3 years, all my Cubalaya chicks had pure white/yellow down. This season, I used a new Gold duckwing aka gold wheaten male for the first time in my breeding. A percentage of his offspring have had some minor, faint, broken striping. Not full blown wildtype chipmunk down, but not proper wheaten down, either. The chicks from him look like excellent Cubas so far. This same male is the fellow who when crossed with a partridge (eb) hen produced partridge chicks....

Oh-Can someone explain my smokey down white chick that did not come from Saladin's stock, and did not have blue added? ? The brown reds I hatched out this year, out of the whites, their down has been the typical "penguin" looking black back with white bellies I would expect.

4) Other breeds- I started this because I had some questions about wheaten. Many other breeds are also wheaten! Feel free to comment if you are lurking here and don't have orientals!! For instance, how are the various wheatens different? How is a Marans, distinct from a Malay from a Faverolle from a Cubalaya? Wheaten is the best color in my opinion, hope this keeps on rolling!!!