Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[kfacres]

More on hybrid vigor...

Most purebred livestock bloodlines are extremely diverse within- and as a result, when mated to differing bloodlines (especially those with outcross injected into them)-- they actually are not as different as one might think. Quite often there are shared ancestors, or shared bloodlines. Really, this is what keeps a breed going- the mating of two lines, which are similar enough to reproduce the same offspring; but diverse enough to not be considered line, or inbred.

Now, the only true hybrid vigor effect that I can think of, without crossbreeding... must involve one very LINEBRED line of stock. What happens here, is this line has been linebred and inbred for so many years, that they have basically created a new breed- within an existing breed. (how every breed has been created) Then, when this line is mated to almost every other blood line in the breed-- the similar thing happens much like crossbreeding... Why? Because no other breeder, anywhere has anything genetically close to the linebred breeder's program, since they have been off in their own little world. They may or may not look alike, but they will look enough alike to be considered the same breed; but gentically the linebred program will be homozygous for almost every trait possible, where as the other side of the outcross genetics- may or may not be.

This linebreeding method is something that I take very seriously in my operation; most specifically in our flock of Oxford sheep. We are basically creating our own breed within the Oxford breed-- and our customer's are reaping tremendous benefit from our "hybrid vigor effect". No, when it's time for us to look for an outcross, it won't be there since so many people are using our stuff-- but I can't say that I'll ever be in the market for a 100% outcross either. I'm content with what I have, and will have-- at this point. Keep in mind this is a flock that has produced numerous State fair and national show champions; as well as sale winners and high sellers.

 

[kfacres]

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There isn't anything Cornish about your WLR Cornish from MMH, more so than my dog has Cornish blood in him...

I do think your roo, should be a great meat bird producer-- if that's your fancy... I can see a slight bit of "cornish" look about this guy... which isn't too bad, considering he prob traces back to a hatchery cornish... I would guess...

 

[kfacres]

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no these are nothing like a cornish of any kind... maybe like a "hatchery" cornish... but unlike a true cornish= of any color...

 

[Minniechickmama]

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I do understand what you are saying, however, you take it more in depth than what I consider it. I grew up with large animals on the farm and experienced more of that reference with them. I know in large livestock that linebreeding and inbreeding are seriously frowned upon, probably because the birth rate is so much slower with them. In small animals, you can do that and get away with it more as I have been doing with my rabbits for a few years now.

But I do believe "hybrid vigor" is still a generally accepted term when you mate two distinctly different breeds together who possess some widely varying traits. Maybe not to the degree you see from what you are saying, but you hopefully eliminate the possibility of transferring 'bad' genes from both parents that you might by doing pure breeding. It is the same as with dogs these days where folks are going for the 'designer breeds' which are really just crossbreeds that produce a more desirable outcome for say being non-shedders.

But, I do appreciate your breakdown of how you define it.

 

[Minniechickmama]

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There isn't anything Cornish about your WLR Cornish from MMH, more so than my dog has Cornish blood in him...

I do think your roo, should be a great meat bird producer-- if that's your fancy... I can see a slight bit of "cornish" look about this guy... which isn't too bad, considering he prob traces back to a hatchery cornish... I would guess...

Actually, the WLR in that picture was a not-quite- mature pullet, who had more Cornish to her than that picture shows. But yes, she was hatchery as is the father to the cockerel I have in my previous post. Here he is, he has the breadth, that is for sure, just lacks in a few other traits of a true Cornish:

I am going for size, muscle and mass for the meat project, pure and simple. I don't care if the result on that project looks like a Cornish or not, just knew I need it in there the get the muscle and part of the mass. This guy sure gave me a good start. I have an EE that is the same age that I would like to use, but he is such a jerk he is going. I don't want to breed a bunch of nasties and regret it later. I am sure I will come back to Cornish again on this venture, but this next year I am going to try some crossbreeds from my own birds and then go from there. I want something also that I can let out and it will go eat a bug or worm or just scratch the dirt a little, not like those CRXs I have been raising - something that acts like a chicken.

 

[Minniechickmama]

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Not really so much like the CRX, but they sure do look closer than the FRs here in the States that I have seen. The ones you have here look like a start toward looking the way the CRX do, but it is a long way to go. But really, i don't thing the FRs are intended to just be a colored version of the CRX. The reason, as I understand it, is the Freedome Rangers are meant to behave more naturally and graze and forage, UNLIKE the CRX who just sit at the feeder and wait for the grain to be pumped into them.

 

[kfacres]

Minniechickmama :

You know, interesting point in which you bring up about linebreeding... I know that quite a few people look down upon it; but actually when you really get into it-- the breeders who *think*, or atleast appear to know what they are doing-- practice it like you wouldn't believe and swear by it tremendously... Myself included. I wrote up a small tidbit- on this subject and why/ why not these people tend to think in how they do... I would encourage you to go and read it; and give me your thoughts... Here's the direct link: http://www.freewebs.com/showsheep/thoughts.htm#712214567


I know that we personally linebreed to the extreme in our sheep operation, and linebreed quite extensively in our cattle as well; both dairy and beef. Our beef operation is new enough that we have not actually done a ton of linebreeding- yet-- but it's only a matter of time before it gets taken over to the extreme-- much like the sheep has. In our sheep flock, we have not used an outcross ram of more than 25% in over 6 years, and have never used a 100% outcross on more than 2 ewes as a trial- ever. ALL FAILED, and were culled.

I think you are right, in why most large animal breeders do not prefer linebreeding- and why the smaller producers do... Shear matter of time, money, and generation interval can turn over.

Now for thoughts on your meat bird project... I have the strong belief that a true, breeder quality/ seedstock cornish rooster can be a tremendous terminal sire on the average ole barnyard flock of hens, even as much on a flock of heritage or higher quality females. I think that they possess outstanding muscle and meat animal shaped carcasses. I do not believe that the hatchery quality Cornish is as good of an option-- as far too many times what I have seen coming from these lines isn't much better than the other hatchery quality chickens-- and if compared to a high quality, breeder bird of most other breeds... the hatchery quality cornish birds aren't as quality either. To me, when you think of carcass and meat bird potential... I rank the following in order: CX, BQ cornish, BQ other DP breeds, hatchery quality cornish, hatchery quality other DP breeds. The pure cornish are just too slow maturing to compare to the CX birds, IMO.

If I were into a project such as this... I would try out some starved CX pullets, some BQ DP birds, some BQ cornish birds..> I would be gearing towards trying to create a consistant base of F1 CX(f)/ DP(m) (For males) birds and a F1 strain of Cornish(m)/ (cornish(m)/ DP(f)) (for females)birds...and try mating these two lines back with each other to create my end product.

Like this to clarrify: for those who won't be able to figure it out..

Strain 1- Cornish/ Rock X females mated to Dual Purpose males. Keep the males from this cross to use later.

Strain 2- Cornish Males mated to Dual P females... Keep the females..>Mate those daughters back to a Cornish... Keep the females..

Mate the males of Strain 1 to the final product females of strain 2.

Here's why I chose what I did... The CX males, will not be able to successfully cover very many females, even though the females will be terrible egg layers... you only need a few of their sons. We want to utilize their genetics, but minimize their exposure- thus keeping them on the sire side. Put those CX females under active, fertile DP roos- breed really doesn't matter.

DP hens for their laying ability in Strain 2- cover them with TRUE Cornish males as a terminal type sire... Keep female offspring-- come back on those females again with a Cornish roo-- can be their father, doesn't matter. Try keeping the egg laying abiltiy of the DP females through the generations. These should be far superior to the CX decendants, although not as good of a layer as a leghorn.

The end product would be 3/8 Dual Purpose, 3/8 True Cornish, and 1/4 Cornish/ Rock X. That's plenty enough hybrid vigor effect to generate practical, productive meat birds.

maybe I shouldn't have let out my secret???

Anyone want to join me in this experiement? I have the TRUE cornish, hardest part??? I also have the Cornish x DP birds already as a female base>

 

[Minniechickmama]

kf-

I hear ya on all counts. I have been raising rabbits for 5 years for my kids and I to show. I started out with a very high end breeder's throw away stock and have been working from there since. I have been line breeding and haven't seen anything too crazy yet. Sometimes I get good and sometimes not so good. I think when I lived on our family dairy farm, the outcome was much more predictable when breeding. We never linebred, did AI on just about everything. It was a registered Holstein herd and we only kept a bull on hand for clean up, but they never stayed around long because of temperament and safety issues.

Anyway, when I was in Ag class back when, line breeding was addressed but not really expounded on. I see its advantages. With what I have now, I am pretty much just getting started. I have had a few setbacks with losing birds to my dogs, (who have been properly addressed) and have had to restart. I don't have too many hatchery birds left, but unfortunately, almost all of my Cornish are hatchery or the equivalent. I did get some eggs from Gary and was only able to hatch 3 and now one has some problems and I may lose it, and it looks like my only cockerel.

For the most part, I am breeding toward Standard. Although, with this project, I am looking for carcass quality birds.

Those WLRs I had here this spring, I sold all the pullets and what cockerels I had left went in the freezer. I had a bit more $$ in them, but they dressed out quite nicely, about the same as the smaller CRX I had out here that went in with them. The reason I want to do my own meat project anyway is to have more natural acting birds to eat. I will still probably do a few CRX each year, but I want to get to where I am doing almost all of my own line who will going out and find things for themselves and have some curiosity about them.

 

[kfacres]

I hear ya on all counts. I have been raising rabbits for 5 years for my kids and I to show. I started out with a very high end breeder's throw away stock and have been working from there since. I have been line breeding and haven't seen anything too crazy yet. Sometimes I get good and sometimes not so good. I think when I lived on our family dairy farm, the outcome was much more predictable when breeding. We never linebred, did AI on just about everything. It was a registered Holstein herd and we only kept a bull on hand for clean up, but they never stayed around long because of temperament and safety issues.

I bet you linebred without knowing it.. About 95% of the Holsteins in this country trace back to TWO Bulls, and about 90% of the Holstein's in the world, trace to the same 2 bulls.... That breed is so linebred, they don't know where to go. US guys have either imported Holsteins from else where in the world, or began crossbreeding due to inbred problems. B/c of the old dairy biasedness-- these guys are importing other breed which look like a Holstein in color (montabellardie, swedish red, and norweigian red), so that their offspring out of Holstein cows look like HOlsteins (red and white) They do this cuz they're PROUD, and they don't want the neighbor to know they are crossbreeding. then their production jumps. and it looks like they have found a new great red and white bull to use the crap out of..
I did get some eggs from Gary and was only able to hatch 3 and now one has some problems and I may lose it, and it looks like my only cockerel.

HOW did they turn out?? I have a pair of the blr birds from gary?

 

[chickened]

I am and have done exactly what you have and are doing with DC. I have used a fast growing strain of Australorp crossed them with a DC roo took the hens and bred back to the father and have some really nice black cornish offspring. My objectives are a little different and I am guarding that but I must say I have some nice hybrids.
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