Red vs Mahogany vs Copper

[BigBlueHen53]

As one who is neither a breeder nor an artist, but who remembers vividly the flap about whether "the dress" was blue and black or white and gold, depending on your computer/ phone/ tablet settings and the lighting in the room, may I offer a suggestion? Perhaps the best way to learn what is meant by these terms is a little "investigative research." Go to a bird show. A chicken show, specifically. Put eyeballs on, and take lots of pictures. And have lots of fun!

 

[Amer]

What breed is in the first pic? He's stunning

Old English Game bantam

 

[ZooAtHome]

Perhaps the best way to learn what is meant by these terms is a little "investigative research." Go to a bird show. A chicken show, specifically. Put eyeballs on, and take lots of pictures. And have lots of fun!

I actually have done this. Will likely do it again when the opportunity presents. Not many shows near where I live and the ones I've found have been pretty small. Not a lot to see and compare. Might check out the county fair this week, if I can make the time for it. Not sure if there will be more variety there or not though.

 

[MROO]

As an artist, I can tell you that my red pencils and paints are not at all the same as any of the "reds" we describe in animals.

Hi! And welcome aboard. You ask a very good question, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer it the way you are hoping. The key phrase, "As an artist," turned on the proverbial light-bulb.

In most Art, beauty and color are interpretive, but most colors start out uniform. An artist can buy a tube of "Saffron Yellow" and expect it to match the tube he/she has at home. A PrismaColor #931 "Dark Purple" pencil will be the same color no matter where or when you purchase it.

Unfortunately, chicken colors don't work the same way. They don't come with PrismaColor numbers (a dog-gone shame, in my humble opinion!) so the principle doesn't apply to them. If I had to compare them to art projects, I'd have to say that chicken colors are more akin to "dye lots." In most breeds, each hatch (or batch, if you will) should be similar in coloration - that's where the Standard of Perfection, or SOP, comes in. Even that isn't always precise. Just like in dye-lots and paint mixing, colors can be slightly off between batches. And like in dyeing textiles (or firing glazes,) colors can often surprise you. Sometimes you'll get an "ombre" batch ... where each chick is a slightly different color than the others, despite having the same (or very similar) parents. Occasionally, you'll get a throwback that comes off really different from the others, and sometimes they're all so close you can't tell them apart. That's part of the beauty ... and the fun ... of having chickens!

If you decide to show, you'll likely find that even the colors listed in the SOP can be interpreted differently, almost subjectively, by different judges. What one judge sees as a rich mahogany, another may see as "too red-brown." My own birds are mostly Nankin bantams. The hens are supposed to be a "chestnut" color. My girls vary from a golden auburn to a dark palomino coloring - and different judges place them flip-flopped, according to their own interpretation of "chestnut." Have you ever seen two random chestnut horses exactly the same shade? Me neither. It's kinda like that ...

So, I guess what I'm saying is don't stress too much about pinning down a certain color to a certain name. Think of it as having the universal computer-screen caveat, "Colors may appear slightly different due to light and computer hardware differences."

Once you've looked around a bit, you'll get a better feel for what's the "right" color for your birds ... unless you end up with Easter Eggers or Swedish Flowers ... then all bets are off and every hatch is like Christmas ... or maybe more like a bear wandered through your painting supplies ... and that's all good, too!

Sorry this is so long ... I didn't start out to write a pamphlet. It just kinda "happened." I hope it helps ...
And again, welcome to BYC ... it's good to have you here!

 

[ZooAtHome]

Hi! And welcome aboard. You ask a very good question, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer it the way you are hoping. The key phrase, "As an artist," turned on the proverbial light-bulb.

In most Art, beauty and color are interpretive, but most colors start out uniform. An artist can buy a tube of "Saffron Yellow" and expect it to match the tube he/she has at home. A PrismaColor #931 "Dark Purple" pencil will be the same color no matter where or when you purchase it.

Unfortunately, chicken colors don't work the same way. They don't come with PrismaColor numbers (a dog-gone shame, in my humble opinion!) so the principle doesn't apply to them. If I had to compare them to art projects, I'd have to say that chicken colors are more akin to "dye lots." In most breeds, each hatch (or batch, if you will) should be similar in coloration - that's where the Standard of Perfection, or SOP, comes in. Even that isn't always precise. Just like in dye-lots and paint mixing, colors can be slightly off between batches. And like in dyeing textiles (or firing glazes,) colors can often surprise you. Sometimes you'll get an "ombre" batch ... where each chick is a slightly different color than the others, despite having the same (or very similar) parents. Occasionally, you'll get a throwback that comes off really different from the others, and sometimes they're all so close you can't tell them apart. That's part of the beauty ... and the fun ... of having chickens!

If you decide to show, you'll likely find that even the colors listed in the SOP can be interpreted differently, almost subjectively, by different judges. What one judge sees as a rich mahogany, another may see as "too red-brown." My own birds are mostly Nankin bantams. The hens are supposed to be a "chestnut" color. My girls vary from a golden auburn to a dark palomino coloring - and different judges place them flip-flopped, according to their own interpretation of "chestnut." Have you ever seen two random chestnut horses exactly the same shade? Me neither. It's kinda like that ...

So, I guess what I'm saying is don't stress too much about pinning down a certain color to a certain name. Think of it as having the universal computer-screen caveat, "Colors may appear slightly different due to light and computer hardware differences."

Once you've looked around a bit, you'll get a better feel for what's the "right" color for your birds ... unless you end up with Easter Eggers or Swedish Flowers ... then all bets are off and every hatch is like Christmas ... or maybe more like a bear wandered through your painting supplies ... and that's all good, too!

Sorry this is so long ... I didn't start out to write a pamphlet. It just kinda "happened." I hope it helps ...
And again, welcome to BYC ... it's good to have you here!

All of that makes a lot of sense. I especially like the dye-lot analogy. It resonates with my color-tuned brain. Honestly, I figured it was something like that when I asked the original question. My problem was I had no starting point for referencing these colors when it comes to chickens. For instance, is mahogany a darker red or a browner red? (Thanks to shared pictures, I now feel it is a little bit of both. Now, watch ... someone will pop in and tell me that's wrong, lol.)

Since most of my preferred subjects are from nature, I completely understand that all critters come in a range of colors, though they are usually close enough to recognize them as being the same species or breed. Occasionally, you even get one that falls well outside the norm. So, I wasn't expecting a Prismacolor definition (though I agree, that would be awesome and would make thing so much simpler ). But when a SOP says something like "deep red, not mahogany," it seems like someone, somewhere has drawn a line. I just wanted to get a feel for where that line was. I now understand that the line moves, depending on who is doing the looking.

I've run into a similar quandary with the terms "buff" and "wheaten." There is obviously a difference, otherwise there would be no need for two different terms; however, I'm still pretty hazy on what that difference is.

I do suspect that more time and experience will help me fine-tune my own subjective interpretation of the various chicken colors. At the time of my original post, though, I kept coming across references to red vs mahogany without any pictures to help me understand what they were actually describing, which left me wanting clarification.

For now, this is all an exercise in semantics for me anyway, as my current flock is a bunch of hatchery quality youngsters, most of which are mixed breeds. They exhibit a variety of colors, patterns and sizes and I love them all just as they are ... no matter what color you call them. Seeing that variety got me curious about all the OTHER types of chickens that are out there and what makes one chicken this type as opposed to that type and well, madness ensued. Such is my life, lol, but it's all good.

Thanks so much for you input. BTW, I love long posts ... as you can probably tell.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I understand the reasons you would not post your artwork here, but I sure wish we could see it!

 

[ZooAtHome]

I understand the reasons you would not post your artwork here, but I sure wish we could see it!

To be honest, it never occurred to me as I haven't drawn or painted many chickens ... yet. Just a couple of quick sketches of them so far. I really just dabble and I don't spend nearly as much time on it as I would like. So many other interests in life, my days always seem so full. And for most of the spring, my studio was a chicken brooder. Still cleaning up the dust from that fiasco. Before that, it was a NICU for a trio of sick kittens.

Maybe I'll start an art thread in the hobbies section. Not today though. Today, I am making pickles.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

To be honest, it never occurred to me as I haven't drawn or painted many chickens ... yet. Just a couple of quick sketches of them so far. I really just dabble and I don't spend nearly as much time on it as I would like. So many other interests in life, my days always seem so full. And for most of the spring, my studio was a chicken brooder. Still cleaning up the dust from that fiasco. Before that, it was a NICU for a trio of sick kittens.

Maybe I'll start an art thread in the hobbies section. Not today though. Today, I am making pickles.

In that case, consider yourself invited!

 

[nicalandia]

What breed is in the first pic? He's stunning

Black Breasted Red OEGB(Old English Game Bantam)

 

[nicalandia]

Sex link gold(s+)+ Mahogany(Mh/Mh) + Autosomal red(Ap/Ap) + unknown red enhancers can make a bird look so dark they would appear to be nearly black.

For example Spangled OEGB(no they not genetically spangled but recessive mottling instead) are wildtype duckwing in phenotype with all possible red enhancers one could find.