RIR's and New Hampshire Reds?

[spartacus_63]

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Your comments are very flattering Bob, but my birds are typical at best. We are currently in our second weak of sub freezing weather with another storm coming tonight, so pictures will have to wait. It would also be at least one if not two more years (generations) before I could ensure the good traits that I am looking for will continue in my flock. By then I will be able to determine which hens and cocks produce the birds I'm looking for. I have 16 hens and two cocks that I am working with so I do not have an excess of chicks from which to work.

My breeding goals are more along the original purpose of the RIR then for show or saving a rare breed. My purpose is modeled along a homesteading flock. I am fortunate to live in an area with lots of breeding experience. Although goals, techniques and methods have changed, husbandry hasn't.

You have some beautiful birds and I enjoy the pictures. Of course it is hard to really compare size and color from a digital image. Your hens appear to be darker than mine. I can hardly distinguish any black tail feathers from the rest of the plumage. Mine have an easily distinguishable set of black tail feathers. Are these pullets or hens? They appear to be about the size of my pullets as they start to lay. My hens seem to fill out a bit more.

 

[spartacus_63]

Well let me be the first to say your so called, "broker" let you down.

Again, we differ in opinion on this and since it was me they were providing service to, that is a bit of a stretch.

From what I saw from your BYC page those Red Chickens are are now where near the SOP for a Red but, there very much production reds from a hatchery..

You must certainly be an excellent judge of birds. To be able to make that call from a couple of poor quality snap shots of 10 or 12 week old birds who are all perched. My hat is off to you.

Oh just so that you know your bantam, "mLarry (OEG)" is a Easter Egger not a Old English Game Bantam.
OEGB don't come in Rose Comb..

This we can mostly agree on. Although I do not think he is an EE either. He is most definitely a mutt. I'm not sure he has a blue egg gene, and it is possible that his comb is walnut vs. rose. I haven't updated my page on him, I get lots of comments and guesses on what his linage is. I can tell you he is not a RIR.

My novice question follow:
I have a few more questions that as a novice, I am unaware of:

1) Does the "Standard Of Perfection" for a breed change at intervals after the introduction of a breed?

2 ) Are the birds in the cull pen true RIRs?

3) How are birds from the cull pen marketed?

My next pair of questions is less about breeding and more about history. I will admit that I have an opinion towards the correct answer, but I am still asking this with an open mind.

1) What was the original purpose (goal) of the RIR breed?

2) Why were the ancestors of the RIRs bred for the traits that they were bred for?

And one last pair of question about the APA or shows in general:

1) Why are birds not weighed at shows?

2) Why are production statistics not taken into account during judging at shows?​

 

[punky rooster]

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You must certainly be an excellent judge of birds. To be able to make that call from a couple of poor quality snap shots of 10 or 12 week old birds who are all perched. My hat is off to you.

he is

 

[Chris09]

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EE's from a hatchery can lay any color egg and may or may not have the Blue Egg Gene (for the most part they are a Mutt)

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I can only recall one time the Standard of a breed was changed and that was to clarify a color description nothing more.

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No, I have a cull pen that has R.I. Red, Orloffs, Polish, Silver Apple Yard Ducks. Why?
Or do you mean, are all the R.I. Red that I cull true R.I. Red? If so yes.

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There not, "marketed".. They go into the soup pot. I don't sell live culls to the open market.

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It's original purpose then is the same as it is now. A Dual Purpose Breed that was bred to a Standard.

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Because they had a Standard in mind of a breed that they wanted to create.

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The Judge will know if that bird is with in the Standard. As in Red's Cocks 6 3/4 to 10 lbs is with in the Standard weight.

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Production statistics can be fixed. Who is to say that bird did lay all the egg the breeder claims it does. Plus production statistics would be more for a Production Breed class. (example Production Reds, and Sex-Links (as in 4-H Shows).

Chris

 

[punky rooster]

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EE's from a hatchery can lay any color egg and may or may not have the Blue Egg Gene (for the most part they are a Mutt)

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I can only recall one time the Standard of a breed was changed and that was to clarify a color description nothing more.

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No, I have a cull pen that has R.I. Red, Orloffs, Polish, Silver Apple Yard Ducks. Why?
Or do you mean, are all the R.I. Red that I cull true R.I. Red? If so yes.

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There not, "marketed".. They go into the soup pot. I don't sell live culls to the open market.

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It's original purpose then is the same as it is now. A Dual Purpose Breed that was bred to a Standard.

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Because they had a Standard in mind of a breed that they wanted to create.

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The Judge will know if that bird is with in the Standard. As in Red's Cocks 6 3/4 to 10 lbs is with in the Standard weight.

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Production statistics can be fixed. Who is to say that bird did lay all the egg the breeder claims it does. Plus production statistics would be more for a Production Breed class. (example Production Reds, and Sex-Links (as in 4-H Shows).

Chris

 

[Robert Blosl]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=5300109#p5300109

Here is some pictures of the true Dual Purpose Rhode Island Reds Mr. Reese and Mrs. Donaldson would be so proud if they could see these pictures. These are young birds hatched from eggs from Paul in Colorado given to thunderwagon . I am so happy for these two back yard poultry families and that they are trying to keep the old rare Rhode Island Red Standard breed birds going. Judges that see birds like these at shows will place them high and will tell others this is what the breed is suppose to look like. Hope these pictures show you what the true old timers where hoping for back in the early days of our breed. bob

 

[spartacus_63]

EE's from a hatchery can lay any color egg and may or may not have the Blue Egg Gene (for the most part they are a Mutt)

He's not from a hatchery, he came from an Amish guy. Great bird with lots of personality and will take on all comers even large fowl. And he wins except with my RIR cocks.

I can only recall one time the Standard of a breed was changed and that was to clarify a color description nothing more.

The following is a quote from Dave Anderson, a former President of the American Poultry Association

Over the years, great debates have raged over the correct shade of color required in an exhibition Rhode Island Red. The desired color has evolved as can be seen by examining the APA Standard of Perfection. The 1916 edition of the Standard calls for “rich, brilliant red” for the male and rich red for the female while today’s version calls for “a lustrous, rich, dark red throughout” for both male and female. Many fanciers in the early 1900s described the ideal color as “steer red” similar to the color on a Hereford steer and today the desired color looks almost black when viewed from a distance of 10 feet or more. The one thing that most breeders and judges have agreed upon through the years is that, whatever the shade, it should be even colored throughout.

The SOP in 1905 also called for rich brilliant red for both male & female. My point is, that if in 1905 it was one standard, 1916 another and in the 60s it was another standard, why is it that we put so much emphasis on a specific color? I can understand the desire to breed to a standard for shows. We can't have judges being to subjective. The color standard has changed over the years and it seems the standard & breeding has followed one after the other.

Or do you mean, are all the R.I. Red that I cull true R.I. Red?

I was speaking specifically to the RIR breed, but the same would be true for all breeds.

It's original purpose then is the same as it is now. A Duel Purpose Breed that was bred to a Standard.

As I understand the original purpose, it was not to be just a dual purpose bird, but a dual purpose bird with quickly maturing pullets and cockerels, that could produce a large number of eggs over a long period of time and be hardy for the climate of the NE.

Because they had a Standard in mind of a breed that they wanted to create.

The original breeders were smart guys. They didn't pick the traits they bred for because it sounded or looked good. They bred the breed to traits that were known to produce results. Body shape, size, feather configuration and color.

One if the Judge is any good he/she will know what that bird weighs and if that bird is with in the Standard.
Production statistics can be fixed. Who is to say that bird did lay all the egg the breed claims it does. Plus production statistics would be more for a Production Breed class. (example Production Reds, and Sex-Links.

It seems to me that bird shows are like dog shows of old. They only care about looks and not about performance. Individual breeders like Bob may have had a goal to get to the old ROP numbers, but not at the sacrifice of type. The same thing happened with breeders of hunting dogs. They weren't considering field performance so breeders stopped breeding for those traits. It didn't take long and there were hounds that couldn't hunt. Then they brought field trials back. Really shook up the pretty dog breeders

I'm kind of a traditionalist. I like to breed animals for their intended purpose and see how well I can compare to the originals. I also grow fruit trees from seeds and keep a heirloom garden just to see what kind of produce I can harvest. For me it is not all about looks, and in my opinion it wasn't all about looks for the old timers, otherwise there would not have been ROPs. So if you want to continue to confuse folks about a so called Production Red breed, I guess that is your prerogative. Its been an interesting discussion. Good luck with your birds.​

 

[cubalaya]

i was surprised that they didn't lock this thread. i have to say that spartacus made some good points especially comparing dog shows and field trials with poultry shows. i noticed with the dogs that some cheating and certain people win to get that title on them. i gave up on taking my dogs to these events years ago and have no intentions of showing my birds. i have had true rir and production red. the true ri reds were big but not as hardy or as good a layer as the production reds. the production reds were smaller and lighter in color but extremely hardy and great layers. if they changed the actual color of the breed in the standard, then what good is the standard and why are they heritage? it sounds like heritage would be steer red, not buckeye dark.

 

[Chris09]

spartacus_63 --

Like others and I said more than one time in this thread and at least one other thread to you show us pictures of your hatchery reds [production reds] that meet the standard.
It's plane and simple, put up or shut up.

I am sure we are all tired of hearing you talking about how good these Murray McMurray R.I. Reds [production reds] are and how they meet APA's ASOP so let's see them.
No more questions, No more prolonging this thread. Either post pictures of your birds or let the thread die.

Chris

 

[Robert Blosl]

Let the thread die. When people ask me for Rhode Island Reds and they just want eggs and cant hatch there own or raise 25 chicks from a hatchery they need to go to a feed store and get them some production birds to serve thier needs. If the want to raise and move up to Standard breed birds like Javas, Orpingtons, Plymouth Rocks ect I will find them a breeder or a hatchery that can serve thier needs. There are a hand full who have good quality birds for them.

If I have a lady who wants to raise 100 egg layers to make a profit I will find the strains that can lay brown eggs for them so they can make a good profit.

The thing that bothers me is dont encrouch the name from one breed into another breed or sub strain. A produciton red is what it is, a New Hampshire is not a New Hamshire Red and Dominqukers are what ever they call them are not Barred Pymouth Rocks.

There are many people who do not want to show their chickens because they cant stand to loose.

Out of all these people on this board only maybe one in 500 want to show. Most of them do it with their children becasue they are showing in the junior class.

Let this thread die and maybe some have learned from it. Others continiue to order from your favorite hatchery as they need our support in these tought times.

bob