Rooster rescued from a coyote, using Manuka honey

[Sunshine Flock]

Hey, don't forget me! I could use an adjustment, too!! I've just spent five weeks in various contorted positions, hovered over an ornery rooster who quickly developed a strong dislike of silver plated butter knifes dripping in honey!!!

This morning he bit my ankle when I stepped too close. That's a rooster for you, folks.

Now, a couple of questions. I knew nothing about nerve and bone healing until this discussion and some of the private messages I've received. It's been quite an education for me, and a good one. Is the idea that left unattended with minimal to no movement, joints and muscles actually stiffen? What does this mean exactly?

Henry just spent some quality time foraging with his flock. As the wind picked up and they started fluffing up and blowing sideways, they headed for the chicken run. The boy followed as far as he could until he encountered a small shrub and got stuck. I was tempted to help him, but the challenge of trying to navigate around it to catch up with the egg layers triggered some desperation in him to figure it out, and he did.

Is there such a thing as too much movement at this point in his healing? Could he tear or strain nerves or his healing joints? I suffer from anxiety and know all about nerves, but not those kind of nerves. How much is too much, or should I not give it another thought?

And boredom. As I'm writing these very words, Henry is repeatedly plucking at a long thread hanging from the feed bag. I'm going to cut it off in a minute; I don't want him getting it stuck in his crop. A hen ate a rubber band not too long ago, so I know they love anything long and wiggly.

But this got me thinking. Are there jungle gym toys I can create that will fascinate him and help stave off some of his boredom? I've been keeping his food just out of reach for a few weeks, once he started regaining some of his mobility. I do this every day. But I'd like to do more and also create opportunities for him to engage in movement activities on his own.

I'd welcome thoughts on this. Thanks and I'm off to Starbucks.

 

[microchick]

I can only speak from my experience dealing with human stroke patients. Stroke patients where they loose the use of one side of their body will, unless a paralyzed arm/fingers/wrist are splinted, will develop contractures where the muscles atrophy, tendons shorten and pull the fingers/wrist into odd, unnatural positions.

http://www.strokewise.info/2015/03/tone-tightness-spasticity.html

Another example is the way an arm, wrist or leg feels when you get it out of a cast. It's pretty worthless at that point. Muscles have atrophied from non use. Most Orthos will pass you on to physical therapy to get muscle tone and strength back into the injured joint.

It goes back to the old saying, use it or loose it. If you are a weight lifter, jogger, heavily into exercising, your muscles become toned and pronounced. If you stop your regimen, your muscles will loose their tone and if you start exercising again, those muscles are going to protest, feel stiff/tight. The trick is to go easy in the beginning so muscles don't protest.

@WhatAboutBob ! Am I explaining that right, Doc? I haven't dealt with contractures and muscle atrophy since my college days, and then years later after wrist surgery.

Personally I think considering what Henry is going through it's pretty much a wonder that he can walk any distance at all.

Are you noticing any improvement in his gait?

 

[biophiliac]

Hey, don't forget me! I could use an adjustment, too!! I've just spent five weeks in various contorted positions, hovered over an ornery rooster who quickly developed a strong dislike of silver plated butter knifes dripping in honey!!!

This morning he bit my ankle when I stepped too close. That's a rooster for you, folks.

Now, a couple of questions. I knew nothing about nerve and bone healing until this discussion and some of the private messages I've received. It's been quite an education for me, and a good one. Is the idea that left unattended with minimal to no movement, joints and muscles actually stiffen? What does this mean exactly?

Henry just spent some quality time foraging with his flock. As the wind picked up and they started fluffing up and blowing sideways, they headed for the chicken run. The boy followed as far as he could until he encountered a small shrub and got stuck. I was tempted to help him, but the challenge of trying to navigate around it to catch up with the egg layers triggered some desperation in him to figure it out, and he did.

Is there such a thing as too much movement at this point in his healing? Could he tear or strain nerves or his healing joints? I suffer from anxiety and know all about nerves, but not those kind of nerves. How much is too much, or should I not give it another thought?

And boredom. As I'm writing these very words, Henry is repeatedly plucking at a long thread hanging from the feed bag. I'm going to cut it off in a minute; I don't want him getting it stuck in his crop. A hen ate a rubber band not too long ago, so I know they love anything long and wiggly.

But this got me thinking. Are there jungle gym toys I can create that will fascinate him and help stave off some of his boredom? I've been keeping his food just out of reach for a few weeks, once he started regaining some of his mobility. I do this every day. But I'd like to do more and also create opportunities for him to engage in movement activities on his own.

I'd welcome thoughts on this. Thanks and I'm off to Starbucks.

Carla

I wonder if and or how he would respond to a mirror. Is there a very docile hen who could accompany him safely for periods of time? Would hanging a flock block entertain him and encourage him to move?

Quote the idea that left unattended with minimal to no movement, joints and muscles actually stiffen? What does this mean exactly? Quote
Agree w @microchick , my experience is withe the feline patient.

Experience with my cat's leg in a cast for6 weeks led to shrinkage and weakening of the muscles and a loss of flexibility in the tendons from disuse that was rapidly rrecovered after the cast was removed. Cats are amazing!

It doesn't seem like Henry had any fractures so his issues appear a bit different. I wonder if his immobility contributed to the swelling/edema.

on a tangent-a recent study discovers neurons in avian brains are organized very differently from mammalian ones. So I wonder if there may be differences in the motor neurons as well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bird-brains-have-as-many-neurons-as-some-primates/

 

[Sunshine Flock]

I can only speak from my experience dealing with human stroke patients. Stroke patients where they loose the use of one side of their body will, unless a paralyzed arm/fingers/wrist are splinted, will develop contractures where the muscles atrophy, tendons shorten and pull the fingers/wrist into odd, unnatural positions.

http://www.strokewise.info/2015/03/tone-tightness-spasticity.html

Another example is the way an arm, wrist or leg feels when you get it out of a cast. It's pretty worthless at that point. Muscles have atrophied from non use. Most Orthos will pass you on to physical therapy to get muscle tone and strength back into the injured joint.

It goes back to the old saying, use it or loose it. If you are a weight lifter, jogger, heavily into exercising, your muscles become toned and pronounced. If you stop your regimen, your muscles will loose their tone and if you start exercising again, those muscles are going to protest, feel stiff/tight. The trick is to go easy in the beginning so muscles don't protest.

@WhatAboutBob ! Am I explaining that right, Doc? I haven't dealt with contractures and muscle atrophy since my college days, and then years later after wrist surgery.

Personally I think considering what Henry is going through it's pretty much a wonder that he can walk any distance at all.

Are you noticing any improvement in his gait?

Great explanation, thanks!

In the video he takes short hops and is unsteady, and his injured leg rests on the floor a lot during movement. Just a week later and he's moving around a lot more. His balance on the good leg has increased and he has more hip movement in the other leg. He doesn't rest the injured leg all the way down while walking; instead there's a few inches of space underneath.

I think a modest amount of weight is on that foot, but I'm not sure he knows this. @Birdinhand suggested in a message a week ago that Henry probably can't feel his foot. The hip moves freely now, whereas a few weeks ago it was paralyzed and totally limp. But the rest of his leg is probably like a phantom leg with little feeling.

However, yesterday and today he has done some rapid nibbling on the drying scabs on both legs. He's not harming them when he does this. It's surprising he's aware of the sores on the injured leg. Do you agree this must mean he has some sense of feeling that's returning? He did this whenever I'd apply honey to any of his wounds. I only apply honey every other day to the puncture wound, and he still puts his beak in the honey and pulls at the scabs. He does this when I apply turmeric to his legs.

But I don't think he's nibbling his injured leg from muscle memory of responding to the turmeric dropper, so he must be feeling something.

 

[Sunshine Flock]

I wonder if and or how he would respond to a mirror. Is there a very docile hen who could accompany him safely for periods of time? Would hanging a flock block entertain him and encourage him to move?

Quote the idea that left unattended with minimal to no movement, joints and muscles actually stiffen? What does this mean exactly? Quote
Agree w @microchick , my experience is withe the feline patient.

Experience with my cat's leg in a cast for6 weeks led to shrinkage and weakening of the muscles and a loss of flexibility in the tendons from disuse that was rapidly rrecovered after the cast was removed. Cats are amazing!

It doesn't seem like Henry had any fractures so his issues appear a bit different. I wonder if his immobility contributed to the swelling/edema.

on a tangent-a recent study discovers neurons in avian brains are organized very differently from mammalian ones. So I wonder if there may be differences in the motor neurons as well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bird-brains-have-as-many-neurons-as-some-primates/

Holy neurons, that was a good read.

It says a parrot has the neuron equivalent of a mid-sized primate — and yet such an incredibly small skull. Quite the amazing discovery.

Neurons inside a bird's brain are densely packed; hence their unusually high cognitive abilities. I'd like to learn more about this. I've heard chickens are smart, but in what ways?

Fascinating read.

 

[biophiliac]

Holy neurons, that was a good read.

It says a parrot has the neuron equivalent of a mid-sized primate — and yet such an incredibly small skull. Quite the amazing discovery.

Neurons inside a bird's brain are densely packed; hence their unusually high cognitive abilities. I'd like to learn more about this. I've heard chickens are smart, but in what ways?

Fascinating read.

Believe it or not, this has has frustrated me for decades - How do they produce such intelligent behaviors with such a tiny brain??? It was such a relief to finally get at least part of the answer!

Here's a real scary thought - What if human brains could be engineer...... no, never mind.

 

[microchick]

If he has nerve injuries, he may be feeling neuropathy pain/tingling in his legs.

I wonder if he has any damage near the sciatic or sacral plexis? I have Marek's in my flock so I'm looking at the excellent pictures of the chicken's nervous system on this page:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/marek’s-disease-in-poultry#v8592928

Neuropathy pain can be burning or tingling, like the foot or leg is asleep. It can even be painful.

Possibly the scabs are itching him also as the tissue heals underneath and the honey is softening them. Frankly, I think that the fact that he is 'toying' with the scabs is akin to preening and when my Marek's birds stop preening, I start worrying about them. He is healing.

In human's average granulation in severe wounds takes 8 to 10 weeks till they are marked healed. Sometimes it takes longer but in decubiti that I've dealt with, the average healing time is 8 weeks with intensive nursing care. So if Henry is at week 5, he is pretty much on schedule.

I've been trying to see if I can find any applications of using DMSO on chickens. I know that you are treating Henry with Homeopathy and I have used DMSO on our dog as a massage agent when when she was rolled by a truck and broke her pelvis. I use it on my own feet when my rheumatic arthralgia is acting up and it does work. You might want to see what you can find about it as if there are applications for use with poultry it you may be able to massage his leg with a drop or two of it. I'm not finding too much but maybe you can find some reference to it.

Yeah, I'm into homeopathy also. I used it as a complimentary treatment when I was fighting Lyme. You also might want to look into cats claw tincture, also.

 

[WhatAboutBob?]

I can only speak from my experience dealing with human stroke patients. Stroke patients where they loose the use of one side of their body will, unless a paralyzed arm/fingers/wrist are splinted, will develop contractures where the muscles atrophy, tendons shorten and pull the fingers/wrist into odd, unnatural positions.

http://www.strokewise.info/2015/03/tone-tightness-spasticity.html

Another example is the way an arm, wrist or leg feels when you get it out of a cast. It's pretty worthless at that point. Muscles have atrophied from non use. Most Orthos will pass you on to physical therapy to get muscle tone and strength back into the injured joint.

It goes back to the old saying, use it or loose it. If you are a weight lifter, jogger, heavily into exercising, your muscles become toned and pronounced. If you stop your regimen, your muscles will loose their tone and if you start exercising again, those muscles are going to protest, feel stiff/tight. The trick is to go easy in the beginning so muscles don't protest.

@WhatAboutBob ! Am I explaining that right, Doc? I haven't dealt with contractures and muscle atrophy since my college days, and then years later after wrist surgery.

Personally I think considering what Henry is going through it's pretty much a wonder that he can walk any distance at all.

Are you noticing any improvement in his gait?

You are pretty spot on. My only worry with the movement is bone related. Nerves by their anatomy are not stretched or damaged by normal or less than normal movement. They do heal agonizingly slow however. The last thing to heal for Henry will be any nerve that has been damaged.

 

[biophiliac]

If he has nerve injuries, he may be feeling neuropathy pain/tingling in his legs.

I wonder if he has any damage near the sciatic or sacral plexis? I have Marek's in my flock so I'm looking at the excellent pictures of the chicken's nervous system on this page:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/marek’s-disease-in-poultry#v8592928

Neuropathy pain can be burning or tingling, like the foot or leg is asleep. It can even be painful.

Possibly the scabs are itching him also as the tissue heals underneath and the honey is softening them. Frankly, I think that the fact that he is 'toying' with the scabs is akin to preening and when my Marek's birds stop preening, I start worrying about them. He is healing.

In human's average granulation in severe wounds takes 8 to 10 weeks till they are marked healed. Sometimes it takes longer but in decubiti that I've dealt with, the average healing time is 8 weeks with intensive nursing care. So if Henry is at week 5, he is pretty much on schedule.

I've been trying to see if I can find any applications of using DMSO on chickens. I know that you are treating Henry with Homeopathy and I have used DMSO on our dog as a massage agent when when she was rolled by a truck and broke her pelvis. I use it on my own feet when my rheumatic arthralgia is acting up and it does work. You might want to see what you can find about it as if there are applications for use with poultry it you may be able to massage his leg with a drop or two of it. I'm not finding too much but maybe you can find some reference to it.

Yeah, I'm into homeopathy also. I used it as a complimentary treatment when I was fighting Lyme. You also might want to look into cats claw tincture, also.

Interested in DMSO. Is that the same product that produces an immediate taste of garlic upon application anywhere on the body? I thought that was so weird I've been a little afraid of it although it seems quite effective.

 

[Sunshine Flock]

Believe it or not, this has has frustrated me for decades - How do they produce such intelligent behaviors with such a tiny brain??? It was such a relief to finally get at least part of the answer!

Here's a real scary thought - What if human brains could be engineer...... no, never mind.

Ha, I had that same thought.

Pack in more neurons, densify the brain, squish out the air?