Russian Orloffs

[NCSprout]

I would hope that anyone selling any stock as pure stock, be it hatching eggs or started birds, has enough integrity to label unstabilized crosses as they are. I personally do have a good selection of Oriental Games (Asil, Malay, Flat-comb Ganoi) that I plan to do some crosses with. However, these are simply for my own learning project, not to sell as Orloffs. Many composite breeds and color varieties of breeds are a testament to the success an outcross can have. But there has to be a definite goal and plan. The breeder would also need a working knowledge of the genetics involved and the specific traits in the birds they are using and a realistic view that such a project involves years of selection and culling. An unstabilized breed or variety should never be sold, much less represented as pure.
I have never subscribed to the idea of capatilizing on the rarity of a breed, therefore I don't see the need to charge an above average price. In my mind, if you are actually doing it for the breed, then why ask a marked up price.

 

[NCSprout]

I have added a link to a new forum page on the club website. Please give me some feedback on what needs to be added or taken away. I plan to post the various standards to the forum. I will also begin adding the various breeders who publicly sell Orloffs in the US. As people allow, I will put contact info up, as well.

 

[ashandvine]

Anyone who wants to poo poo crossing needs to sit down and read. Most breeds of chicken were made; created with careful determination generation by generation. Heritage and heirloom are fancy sales terms. RO weren't deposited in a coop one winter by chicken faeries. Buckeye? Created 1904. Delaware, 1930s. Chantecler? 1920s and 30s. Even that duly admired heritage PBR was made and recognized in late 1890s. First, no one should tell you not to try something once, more than that if its working. Genes show up in weird ways generations and generations later than expected sometimes so knowing what's in a line is just good husbandry. Second, I may have read Haiku wrong but there isn't anything wrong with crossing. If you are seriously against it then get into Games, Junglefowl, maybe a few pheasants that are being reclassified as Jungle fowl. There really isn't such a thing as purists in chickens. Dedication is one thing, and I admire that. Don't go condemning the very process by which most chickens as we know them were made and then try to hold a high ground. The RO was made. With that in mind, my two cents with regard to how to improve RO is to consider using one or more of the breeds that are known to be part of its foundation. Limiting the RO gene pool further isn't a good idea. Several much more experience breeders than I have concluded that crossing the RO with games is the way to go and I agree. Games were part of their foundation after all. Malay is suggested. I have my eye on a black game and have every intention of using a black game to create black RO here with a lot of luck. Importing from the EU is nice, if you have the resources, and can ensure those birds are good quality. Experiment! Gosh. They are chickens!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Oh for goodness sake, it has absolutely nothing to do with being a purist and EVERYTHING to do with stabilizing the breed and getting some consistency. Every cross you make sets you back generations and generations from that all-important goal (the single most important thing when it comes to being accepted back into the standard is conformity across a wide population of birds!)

I'm not saying DON'T cross, cross to your heart's content but don't delude yourself into thinking that's the best or only way to "save the breed". There is stock out there that can get this breed where it needs to go. Just because they aren't hanging out on BYC doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[desertmarcy]

yep, that was me. I have given my opinion on crosses earlier in the thread. I think desertmarcy may have some experience at an Ameraucana cross if I remember correctly
As far as imports, Canada would be easiest for obvious reasons. Germany and UK can be done, but it is expensive and logistically difficult. I have been in contact with a couple of different breeders in the both areas and really hope to get some eggs or birds imported in the future. All the regulations for import can be found on the http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ website.

I crossed a couple of Ameraucana hens to an Orloff male last year SIMPLY TO GET SOME GREEN EGG LAYERS for my layer flock. I am in no way using them in my Orloff breeding program, let me be perfectly clear--NOT using them to cross back in to the Orloffs, that would be a big mistake! Be careful about what you say about people's crosses, people cross breed chickens for a lot of different reasons.

Now for EE's, they are nice---they have the Orloff look and friendly personality and because the Orloffs lay a light brown egg, the egg color tends more towards the blue shade rather than green.

 

[desertmarcy]

Quote:

There is stock out there that can get this breed where it needs to go. Just because they aren't hanging out on BYC doesn't mean they don't exist.

That's for sure. I'm sure there are a lot of good breeders out there that don't hang out on ANY poultry forum.

 

[ashandvine]

Oh for goodness sake, it has absolutely nothing to do with being a purist and EVERYTHING to do with stabilizing the breed and getting some consistency. Every cross you make sets you back generations and generations from that all-important goal (the single most important thing when it comes to being accepted back into the standard is conformity across a wide population of birds!)

I'm not saying DON'T cross, cross to your heart's content but don't delude yourself into thinking that's the best or only way to "save the breed". There is stock out there that can get this breed where it needs to go. Just because they aren't hanging out on BYC doesn't mean they don't exist.

I am glad to hear. I had hoped I had misread some of that. I believe stabilizing this breed is a concept that is a long way off due to the out-crossing done with things like sussex and the limited gene pool. It all starts with folks wanting to and getting the breed more notice, like this. And people like NC who are trying to organize it for us-- thanks for that. I think the word 'out' is the word that makes me squint. I like the word 'in.' I posit that if you cross into the gene pool that created the bird, esp when the pool is so messed up and small, then it could be good. I am not saying tout your F1 or 2 as pure but its better IMO than the 'out' crossing to... anything that didn't go into creating them. If that makes sense. I don't think every generation of out crossing puts you back if you are really sensible about what you are crossing with. JMO again though.

That's for sure. I'm sure there are a lot of good breeders out there that don't hang out on ANY poultry forum.

X2

 

[NCSprout]

I crossed a couple of Ameraucana hens to an Orloff male last year SIMPLY TO GET SOME GREEN EGG LAYERS for my layer flock. I am in no way using them in my Orloff breeding program, let me be perfectly clear--NOT using them to cross back in to the Orloffs, that would be a big mistake! Be careful about what you say about people's crosses, people cross breed chickens for a lot of different reasons.

Now for EE's, they are nice---they have the Orloff look and friendly personality and because the Orloffs lay a light brown egg, the egg color tends more towards the blue shade rather than green.

I didn't say anything about your cross, simply that you had crossed them. I make no claim to know why nor what your results were.

Quote:
Absolutely. And they are exactly some of the people we need to be able to contact. I am by no means limited to this forum, as I am sure, neither are many of you. I actually get tired of the bickering and just stay away for stretches of time. Then I come back on because one thing about this particular forum is the traffic and the sheer amount of potential there is here to make a difference for the breed.
Now, how do you propose we find these good Orloff breeders that don't hang out in places like this? Where is this stock that isn't hanging out here? I know it exists. A few of us have actually gathered a pretty good mailing list of Orloff breeders and enthusiasts, some that don't even have email, and forwarded it on to quite a few of you. Now I am trying to organize all this information gathered from various sources into one accessible location dedicated to one thing and that is the Orloff. All I have asked for is feedback and information that I may not already have.

 

[vtguania]

Ashandvine, my chicks where pretty much all yellow down when I received them. Not knowing much about the breed I was worried I might have gotten some not so pure Orloff. They have started looking more like Orloff as the weeks go by except for a few that barely have any tufts on their face. A few have what seems like way to much white ( read somewhere that this is not standard for spangling) in their spangling but they are still very young. I lost two this past week due to all the rain & temperature dropping drastically. I am still new to the breed but hope that through this & other means we can bring the Orloff back strong here in the states. Even considered trying to import some of the other rare colors from the UK but not sure how much that would cost or the hazzle of it. I haven't taken any pictures of my Orloff lately but it is long overdue, just have a lot going on now with work & training. I managed to acquire a really nice white bantam Orloff pair a few weeks ago though & they are adorable.

 

[vtguania]

Wow, I just caught up on the thread. For some reason or other I have not been getting my updates to this forum. I am definitely helping out in any way to get the Orloff recognized. I have 11 Orloff (LF Spangled that are about 3 weeks or so) not sure of their sex yet or standard quality. Also interested in Mahogany. If any are good standard I am willing to have some available for bringing the breed back strong. Let me know what I can do to help out. The Orloff Society has a published standard for the breed on their facebook, not sure if anyone is aware of it. https://www.facebook.com/groups/orloffsociety/476458955714222/ & https://www.facebook.com/groups/orloffsociety/476457912380993/. I spoke to Erhard Weihs back in April & he was looking into getting the APA to re-admitt the breed, I can touch basis with him again.