Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[RoyalChick]

Don't you think a thread on rescued battery hens is the right place for a discussion on the relative roles of different factors to explain their abnormally short lifespans?

So I've grouped responses by science, then environment, then examples, then diet.

Is this linked with genes? If so, surely there's research on how to inactive those genes in the seemingly endless search for (human) longevity? And if it's not linked to genes, what else more obvious than diet? These chickens demonstrate enhanced performance, and, to compare it with our enhanced performers (sportspeople), the chickens are not getting it through exercise, so that only really leaves diet, doesn't it?

'They are bred' implies genes again. Can you give me something heavy to read on this?

Very important point. The average masks a range of values.

Also a very important point. I am not at all suggesting genes don't matter. But I do think they are a useful distraction for the feed industry, because while we're hand-waving in the direction of genetics, about which we can do nothing of course, they can keep their heads down and try to stay out of the argument. A lot of human ill-health is attributed to diet, especially highly processed food (as your post so clearly showed); chicken ill-health seems to be chaotically attributed to anything they eat except commercial (i.e. highly-processed) feed, as Iluveggers pointed out so well.

Quantity and quality of exercise is another very good, and far too often overlooked, point.

Indeed. We make do with what we must!

Thanks for this concrete example Molpet. The other thing to consider with high production breeds is that they are very highly inbred. That in itself can lead to all sorts of problems, as very rare breeds and exhibition strains of pure breeds often show.

That's very interesting; the instinct to forage is not just still there, but it's strong.

That would explain the number of times I've seen the advice to give extra vit B! Thanks. Here it is automatically added to breakfast cereal, to make sure kids get enough whatever the nutritional nous of their parents, so it's easy and cheap to add to whatever we give as chicken feed if we feel supplementation is necessary.

I wish this were better known. There's a lot of rubbish said about fat per se.

This is an extract from the Merck Veterinary Manual. I read a bunch of the scientific papers but actually this isn't a bad summary of what I read. Basically the issue seems to be in the liver making fat to produce adequate yolks for the eggs. So you need to maintain a good energy level for the chicken (they are not advocating getting the birds to be overweight) and to substitue carbohydrate with fat.

***
Experimentally, most attempts to prevent or treat the condition have been made through dietary modification. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial. Presumably such modification means the liver needs to synthesize less fat for yolk. Replacement of corn with other cereals, such as wheat and barley, is often beneficial. However, this substitution may reduce the dietary energy level or necessitate using additional fat to maintain isoenergetic conditions, two factors known to influence FLHS. A wide energyrotein ratio in the diet will aggravate FLHS.

Various byproduct feeds such as distiller’s grains, fish meal, and alfalfa meal reduce the incidence of FLHS. Supplementation with selenium also has been shown to reduce FLHS, but the mode of action is unclear. When a farm has a history of FLHS, the diet should contain at least 0.3 ppm selenium, ideally as organic selenium, and up to 100 IU vitamin E/kg diet, with appropriate levels of an antioxidant such as ethoxyquin. There are reports of layers having greater incidence of fatty liver when fed chelated trace minerals versus conventional inorganic minerals. However, the relation between the increased organic minerals in layer diets and the incidence of FLHS is unknown. These various additives collectively help to limit the occurrence of tissue rancidity and thus hemorrhage of the excess fat in the liver.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...c syndrome is,and fat engorgement at necropsy.
***

 

[Perris]

This is an extract from the Merck Veterinary Manual. I read a bunch of the scientific papers but actually this isn't a bad summary of what I read. Basically the issue seems to be in the liver making fat to produce adequate yolks for the eggs. So you need to maintain a good energy level for the chicken (they are not advocating getting the birds to be overweight) and to substitue carbohydrate with fat.

***
Experimentally, most attempts to prevent or treat the condition have been made through dietary modification. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial. Presumably such modification means the liver needs to synthesize less fat for yolk. Replacement of corn with other cereals, such as wheat and barley, is often beneficial. However, this substitution may reduce the dietary energy level or necessitate using additional fat to maintain isoenergetic conditions, two factors known to influence FLHS. A wide energyrotein ratio in the diet will aggravate FLHS.

Various byproduct feeds such as distiller’s grains, fish meal, and alfalfa meal reduce the incidence of FLHS. Supplementation with selenium also has been shown to reduce FLHS, but the mode of action is unclear. When a farm has a history of FLHS, the diet should contain at least 0.3 ppm selenium, ideally as organic selenium, and up to 100 IU vitamin E/kg diet, with appropriate levels of an antioxidant such as ethoxyquin. There are reports of layers having greater incidence of fatty liver when fed chelated trace minerals versus conventional inorganic minerals. However, the relation between the increased organic minerals in layer diets and the incidence of FLHS is unknown. These various additives collectively help to limit the occurrence of tissue rancidity and thus hemorrhage of the excess fat in the liver.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/fatty-liver-hemorrhagic-syndrome/fatty-liver-hemorrhagic-syndrome-in-poultry#:~:text=Fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome is,and fat engorgement at necropsy.
***

That is so interesting. While some BYCers blame 'treats' etc., the intro to the Merck entry identifies fatty liver heamorrhagic syndrome with commercial feed and being cooped up: "Key findings are excessive fat in the liver, associated with varying degrees of hemorrhage. The condition is associated with high-energy diets and restricted exercise." That's a description of industrial hen units, and backyard chickens kept in little versions of the same.

 

[RoyalChick]

That is so interesting. While some BYCers blame 'treats' etc., the intro to the Merck entry identifies fatty liver heamorrhagic syndrome with commercial feed and being cooped up: "Key findings are excessive fat in the liver, associated with varying degrees of hemorrhage. The condition is associated with high-energy diets and restricted exercise." That's a description of industrial hen units, and backyard chickens kept in little versions of the same.

Yes exactly so. The recipe for reducing the disease incidence in a flock seems to be:
- Exercise
- High Protein and low carbohydrate with fat making up the energy deficit
When we say high protein and high fat we are still talking small numbers but it is what convinced me to switch to the no soy, no corn, insect protein feed that was criticized for having higher fat. My read is that it is a better profile than the typical feed. Also eye wateringly expensive so it is great mine get to forage around most days for whatever goodies they can find in their field!

 

[Perris]

Also eye wateringly expensive

Indeed! Grow your own mealworms - it's so easy - and almost FREE!

 

[RoyalChick]

Indeed! Grow your own mealworms - it's so easy - and almost FREE!

I keep pondering whether to do that but it feels like one more thing to do and somehow I am only just keeping my head above water as it is!
I do put logs out on the grass in the chicken field and then every now and then turn them over and there is always a feast right there!

 

[Perris]

I keep pondering whether to do that but it feels like one more thing to do and somehow I am only just keeping my head above water as it is!
I do put logs out on the grass in the chicken field and then every now and then turn them over and there is always a feast right there!

I understand, I really do. Piles of wood of different species and sizes dotted about will make habitat for lots of insects that will then populate the area and feed your chickens.

 

[ManueB]

Is this linked with genes?

This article isn't open access but the abstract is informative and it has a bunch of references. I don't have the background to understand it .
This one is on the same subject , it happens to be written by the Chinese who seem to be very interested both by nutrition and genome of layers.
This is just for fun on the very beginning of industrial poultry nutrition.

 

[Perris]

I don't have the background to understand it .

me neither. Biology has moved on a lot since I studied it!

 

[Ladies-Eight]

Don't you think a thread on rescued battery hens is the right place for a discussion on the relative roles of different factors to explain their abnormally short lifespans?

So I've grouped responses by science, then environment, then examples, then diet.

Is this linked with genes? If so, surely there's research on how to inactive those genes in the seemingly endless search for (human) longevity? And if it's not linked to genes, what else more obvious than diet? These chickens demonstrate enhanced performance, and, to compare it with our enhanced performers (sportspeople), the chickens are not getting it through exercise, so that only really leaves diet, doesn't it?

'They are bred' implies genes again. Can you give me something heavy to read on this?

Very important point. The average masks a range of values.

Also a very important point. I am not at all suggesting genes don't matter. But I do think they are a useful distraction for the feed industry, because while we're hand-waving in the direction of genetics, about which we can do nothing of course, they can keep their heads down and try to stay out of the argument. A lot of human ill-health is attributed to diet, especially highly processed food (as your post so clearly showed); chicken ill-health seems to be chaotically attributed to anything they eat except commercial (i.e. highly-processed) feed, as Iluveggers pointed out so well.

Quantity and quality of exercise is another very good, and far too often overlooked, point.

Indeed. We make do with what we must!

Thanks for this concrete example Molpet. The other thing to consider with high production breeds is that they are very highly inbred. That in itself can lead to all sorts of problems, as very rare breeds and exhibition strains of pure breeds often show.

That's very interesting; the instinct to forage is not just still there, but it's strong.

That would explain the number of times I've seen the advice to give extra vit B! Thanks. Here it is automatically added to breakfast cereal, to make sure kids get enough whatever the nutritional nous of their parents, so it's easy and cheap to add to whatever we give as chicken feed if we feel supplementation is necessary.

I wish this were better known. There's a lot of rubbish said about fat per se.

@Solanacae @Shadrach @BDutch @Perris

@MaryJanet @RoyalChick @Iluveggers @Molpet

I believe a new thread should be started as a courtesy to "Shadrach".

A new thread would get lost and interrupt the consistency of the Ex-Batts thread.

Get an opinion from @N F C .

She had me start a new thread on what I was in need of even though there was a thread on the exact thing I needed.

 

[Perris]

This one is on the same subject , it happens to be written by the Chinese who seem to be very interested both by nutrition and genome of layers.

and is comprehensible! Note that the RIR is a high production layer for them