Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[RoyalChick]

Interesting hypothesis. (Am I guessing correctly that someone's pet peeves is also rubbing the wrong way ?)

I'm afraid I don't have enough experience with chickens to have an opinion.
What I do have a lot of experience in, is searching for scientific articles (before I quit to come live here I was an academic librarian for the last fifteen years).
I can say from a quick probe that although the effect of nutrition on hen's welfare and health is an object of study, it is mostly the case in the context of commercial production structures. There are study on that subject for backyard chickens, but they are mostly done in developing countries in the Asian and African continent.
I can also say that I've seen studies going both ways ( free ranging and fresh feeding is beneficial vs harmful).

On the other hand, there are quite a number of studies on the impact of genetics for hens welfare and the reproductive problems of high production breed's. I posted one some times ago that really hurt me when I came upon it on the Fluffy butt acres thread : https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...es-stories-of-our-flock.1286630/post-25765680

I'll look a bit more when I'm in the mood and post the links I find interesting.

I did do some digging into academic research on some of this but will have to re-find the references. There is lots on genetics and how the 'battery' breeds like ISA Brown and red sexlinks are indeed bred in a way that more-or-less ensures death before 3 years old.
On feed I picked up a couple of interesting things:
- Commercial feed is optimized but not necessarily for long life of the hen - it is also for a range of 'typical'. All populations have a bell curve so if forced to eat the same thing there are likely to be individuals who are getting too much of something or too little of something
- Vitamin B is something that is often insufficient in commercial feeds - in part because of the bell curve, but also because it is not that stable and so decays in the supply chain and over time
- Fatty liver is an issue of fat metabolism in the chicken NOT of being a fat chicken. Lean chickens can have fatty liver. There is a good body of research that suggests that a somewhat higher fat level of intake is actually protective against fatty liver (yes you can all yell at me now and I will dig up the refernce when I have time). The conclusion of this line of research was that more protein and more fat with less carbohydrate would be a better mix for chickens.

 

[Solanacae]

Took a fall in the coop banged the knee up one deeper wound on the lower leg. I will be fine put silver on all of them .. no more bleeding but 2 bled good.
That was closing the coop for the night.
Funny but smudge had gotten off the perch to stand next to me prone ?View attachment 3200054
Tax

I hope you heal up quickly, Penny! It does seem like Smudge came over to check up on you.

I have a hypothesis for the collective consideration of those on this thread:

The notoriously short lifespan of 'battery/production breed' chickens is more attributable to their diet (100% industrially produced starter/grower/layer feed until/if 'rescued') than to their genes. Discuss.

I think this is a great discussion topic. I think environmental factors will certainly affect the expression of what a creature is genetically predisposed to do, but you can’t override it completely.

My parents have family histories of diabetes (maternal side) and heart disease (paternal side) and have made a conscious effort to lead a healthy, active lifestyle in an effort to reduce the risk that they have in their family history. Their philosophy is that they will get it eventually, but they can postpone it as long as possible. I think they have been quite successful - my mom’s siblings are all diabetic or pre-diabetic while she is not, and my dad is on blood thinners but is keeping his cholesterol levels within normal ranges. I realize that both diabetes and heart disease can run in families simply because poor diets can be part of a family’s learned culture, but there is definitely a genetic component as well that can predispose a person to said diseases as well.

One of the things on BYC that drives me bonkers is the “don’t feed your hens too many treats just commercial feed” argument. I don’t understand how that can be controlled if your chickens have access to pasture/yard/grass/whatever you call it. If I give my chickens kale and collard greens, that is considered a “treat”. If they forage and eat a ton of grass and bugs, it is not a treat. I personally think for the most part chickens can regulate what they need. Yes maybe they will gorge on something if they have access to it but I think eventually they’ll stop eating it, for example a heap of berries. My girls have local feed available from morning til roost, but also have grass & bugs to choose from, along with the occasional melon rind or other scrap. As they get older I will probably give them more scraps, and let them regulate their own bellies. Do you guys feel strongly one way or another?

Also, I doubt feed alone is the cause of production hens issues. If they are confined to a cage lack of exercise and forage might be a problem. I don’t think excess calcium from layer food would be an issue since they are usually removed from production if they stop laying or slow too much.

I’ve gotten that advice too when asking about a hen with a saggy abdomen - it was not ascites, as I worried, but an excess of abdominal fat. I told only to feed commercial feed and stop giving them vegetable trimmings. What is funny is that no one bothered to ask if I had the commercial feed available 24/7 or if I fed a measured amount. The hen in question, Saoirse, is a pig. And I do have feed available 24/7, except for when I was battling a mouse problem at my old place for a time. She eats a ton, but she’s also the most physically active of all my chickens as well, and the best at escaping from the chicken area to go on self-guided tours of the backyard. I decided not to worry too much about it, since rationing feed isn’t practical with my current schedule. Over time, the excess fat has gone away, so perhaps she has solved that on her own.

I think the nutritional quality of the kitchen scraps makes a difference. Trimmings from fruits and vegetables, I really don’t understand how they could be harmful to the chicken. Some scraps they eat, others they don’t. I don’t put grains or meat in my compost pile, so what scraps mine get are nutrient rich but not calorie dense. I have a friend that feeds all her food scraps to her chickens to save money on their feed. She’ll even get expired canned food for free/almost free for the same purpose. Such food will be high sodium and have far less nutrients, but unfortunately that is her approach to keeping chickens. She grew up in a farm and definitely has the mentality where one puts in the minimum amount of space and feeds the lowest quality pellets to keep her costs down. She doesn’t like poop on her lawn, so they don’t get to forage at all. She says her eggs don’t taste any different than store eggs (not surprising) but she likes watching them and likes that they eat her food scraps, so she keeps them. I must add that she is a lovely person, and has many admirable qualities, we just don’t have the same approach to keeping chickens.

I digress. I’ve read here in BYC of a fair number of production breed hens that have lived a long life, most of which seem to not be ex-batt but not all of the anecdotes specified how they got the chicken. There are also a lot of people who have production breeds die early because of the reproductive problems they are known to have. The problem I see is that there’s not really any good comparative data on these breeds because most battery hens are not rescued after the egg factories decide their time is up. You are left with anecdotes about longevity in places like BYC and that’s about it.

Good point. Does anyone have any actual stats on this? And do we (if so, how?) distinguish between hatchery-grade heritage breeds and not-mass-produced-heritage breeds?

Spot on! No matter what the issue or problem, someone on any BYC thread can be guaranteed to pipe up that the problem is 'treats' and the solution is commercial feed only. The educator in me feels compelled to try to make such people just stop and think for a minute.

On genes v diet, I'm sure I've seen posts by people who have production breeds but have had them since chicks (not as spent rescues), and have treated them like backyard chickens not industrial production units, and they lived normal length lives (at least, more than 4 years). Anyone here experienced that?

The ISA Browns I bought by accident are too young for me to weigh in on the longevity question, but mine started laying at 20 and 21 weeks as best I could figure based on wing development when I got them to guess when they hatched. Part of this could be the feed, and part of this could be daylight coming in to play because I got them as chicks in October and they began to lay in January. 20-21 weeks to first egg is still mighty fast, but it’s still a month later than the 16 weeks that some say their production breeds start laying. I was relieved they didn’t start any sooner. They had access to my compost pile and a large area to roam around, plus foraging in the backyard in the evenings at the time, and now get to forage in a portion of the backyard all day. Granted it’s not truly free ranging and their forage options are somewhat limited, but they have ample space and are out happily hunting for tasty things every morning as soon as the pop door opens. They are more active foragers than my Marans, Sussex, Wyandotte cross, and Sultans, and about par with Saoirse (an EE with Ameraucana heritage), the Marans/Legbar cross, and my Dominique.

 

[Shadrach]

Good point. Does anyone have any actual stats on this? And do we (if so, how?) distinguish between hatchery-grade heritage breeds and not-mass-produced-heritage breeds?

Spot on! No matter what the issue or problem, someone on any BYC thread can be guaranteed to pipe up that the problem is 'treats' and the solution is commercial feed only. The educator in me feels compelled to try to make such people just stop and think for a minute.

On genes v diet, I'm sure I've seen posts by people who have production breeds but have had them since chicks (not as spent rescues), and have treated them like backyard chickens not industrial production units, and they lived normal length lives (at least, more than 4 years). Anyone here experienced that?

Mostly it's the same someones.

 

[Solanacae]

Had to run out and get some fresh tax. Here they are this morning, enjoying the green and cool side of the house before the heat sets in for the day.

 

[Iluveggers]

think the nutritional quality of the kitchen scraps makes a difference. Trimmings from fruits and vegetables, I really don’t understand how they could be harmful to the chicken. Some scraps they eat, others they don’t.

I agree w your whole post. We eat “clean” in my house, no fast food, very limited processed. My chickens will eventually get most of our plant and seafood scraps. That’s it. But I’m not going to monitor or regulate the amount unless it’s extreme (ie we host friends and have 3 salad bowls full of scraps…that I would divvy out a bit!)

 

[no fly zone]

Sad news everyone- I found Sky dead in the coop late this morning. She was perfectly fine last evening, and had not been showing any unusual behavior or signs of illness. The damn fire ants had already chewed up her face and vent. I buried her in the back yard near her son Achilles.

I had been planning to get some pics and video clips of her with her babies today, as I hadn't posted anything much of them lately. She was probably the friendliest bird we've ever had.

Well, here are a few new pics of the babies, sans Sky:

 

[ManueB]

Sad news everyone- I found Sky dead in the coop late this morning. She was perfectly fine last evening, and had not been showing any unusual behavior or signs of illness. The damn fire ants had already chewed up her face and vent. I buried her in the back yard near her son Achilles.

I had been planning to get some pics and video clips of her with her babies today, as I hadn't posted anything much of them lately. She was probably the friendliest bird we've ever had.

Well, here are a few new pics of the babies, sans Sky:
View attachment 3200377View attachment 3200380View attachment 3200381

I'm really sorry for your loss. She was such a pretty and stubborn little broody.

 

[GregnLety]

Sad news everyone- I found Sky dead in the coop late this morning. She was perfectly fine last evening, and had not been showing any unusual behavior or signs of illness. The damn fire ants had already chewed up her face and vent. I buried her in the back yard near her son Achilles.

I had been planning to get some pics and video clips of her with her babies today, as I hadn't posted anything much of them lately. She was probably the friendliest bird we've ever had.

Well, here are a few new pics of the babies, sans Sky:
View attachment 3200377View attachment 3200380View attachment 3200381

Sorry to hear of Sky's passing. If it's any consolation you have her offspring

 

[no fly zone]

And the hits won't stop coming. I just found my snow hoggie Titus dead. She had regurgitated the last 2 mice I tried to feed her, so I knew something was off, but didn't know it was this bad. Easily a $1000+ snake.

 

[bruceha2000]

She thinks that if they're out in the sun they'll expire more quickly.

Lety should understand that while they HAVE bird brains, they are NOT bird brains When given a choice of where they want to be the chickens will go to where they are most comfortable.

IgorsMistress would tell you straight I believe.

As can @microchick

You should close your flock and wait for them to die before you introduce new chickens.

Marek's lives in the soil for a very long time. Any birds brought in a year after the last of his flock die can still get Marek's. If the remaining birds have it, they are resistant. @microchick's "solution" to her Marek's issue is to breed those that are resistant.

hopefully she gives up without having to be broken.

I've never had this happen. After some attempts to let them give up on their own my MO is to run them directly to the buster as soon as they start hanging on the nest and yelling at me. They get out when they can talk to me nicely

Having said that, I did have a hen with a terrible prolapse eauthanised. She was unfixable & it was no kindness to put her through days of misery but I still feel awful about it because she really wanted to live.

The one and only hen I killed had the same problem. And it wasn't easy she was, and still is, my favorite of all the girls I've had in 10 years of chicken keeping. I lost others that just got old and I let them go on their own schedule. They slowed down and sort of isolated from the others but were still eating and drinking.

I found Sky dead in the coop late this morning. She was perfectly fine last evening, and had not been showing any unusual behavior or signs of illness.

I'm really sorry

You would have to do a necropsy to know what killed her but it wasn't Marek's if she was fine last night.

I've done a few necropsies on birds that seemed perfectly healthy and found they had fatty liver disease. The liver explodes and they drop where they stand from lack of blood - it is all coagulated in their body cavity when you do the necropsy. Of course Sky could have died from something entirely different.