Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[RoyalChick]

Further...
There is so much evidence even from backyard keepers and studies not directly related to studying whether or not chickens are tribal that illustrate the point. Recently the topic of mating arose on another thread and I posted a study that observed that roosters were more tolerant of relatives mating the hens than strangers.
Lots of posts on BYC with pictures what's more of same breeds sticking together. I've posted a few.
Roosters have favourites, most acknowledge that. There's your tribe.

For reasons I've never fully grasped, despite all the evidence to the contrary backyard keepers just don't want to acknowledge that they are keeping a tribal creature in flock conditions.

Just so I can follow the debate, what is your definition of a tribe Shad? And what are the essential differences between a tribe and a flock.
Is it just about group size?
You and @Perris seem to be saying it relates to the behavior of multiple males in the group but I haven’t fully understood the difference between the two concepts.

 

[Shadrach]

Just so I can follow the debate, what is your definition of a tribe Shad? And what are the essential differences between a tribe and a flock.
Is it just about group size?
You and @Perris seem to be saying it relates to the behavior of multiple males in the group but I haven’t fully understood the difference between the two concepts.

I don't have a strict definition of a flock or tribe. My problem with the term flock when it comes to chickens is what people infer from these descriptive words.
My argument is when properly studied chicken behaviour is more closely related to tribal behaviour than it is to flock behaviour, allowing for my limited understanding of both behaviours.

My current view is chicken welfare would be better served if we abandoned the word flock and used the word tribe instead.
As a poor but interesting example, humans are often described as tribal creatures, a view I agree with. If we, society, made better allowances for the tribal nature of humans then perhaps some of the problems associated with treating humans as flock animals, social engineering, housing, immigration etc, might be avoided.
Flock, well they're all basically the same; tribe, they're all different. Very badly put but I think you'll get the idea.

There are metrics that could be used to dfferentiate between flock behaviour and tribal behaviour I dare say, but one that in my view is very telling is chickens, the vast majority of opinions on the matter agree, are territorial. Another is, not a popular view in the current political climate, is there is without doubt an affinity for breed.

It's going to take me some time to retrieve the pictures and other information I need to support my view.

 

[RoyalChick]

I don't have a strict definition of a flock or tribe. My problem with the term flock when it comes to chickens is what people infer from these descriptive words.
My argument is when properly studied chicken behaviour is more closely related to tribal behaviour than it is to flock behaviour, allowing for my limited understanding of both behaviours.

My current view is chicken welfare would be better served if we abandoned the word flock and used the word tribe instead.
As a poor but interesting example, humans are often described as tribal creatures, a view I agree with. If we, society, made better allowances for the tribal nature of humans then perhaps some of the problems associated with treating humans as flock animals, social engineering, housing, immigration etc, might be avoided.
Flock, well they're all basically the same; tribe, they're all different. Very badly put but I think you'll get the idea.

There are metrics that could be used to dfferentiate between flock behaviour and tribal behaviour I dare say, but one that in my view is very telling is chickens, the vast majority of opinions on the matter agree, are territorial. Another is, not a popular view in the current political climate, is there is without doubt an affinity for breed.

It's going to take me some time to retrieve the pictures and other information I need to support my view.

I wasn’t really looking for metrics, and am more than happy to rise above conventional usage of collective nouns, I am just trying to get at the essence of what you are thinking.
From your response I am taking away that you are thinking the following:
- Natural group size is not relevant to the difference.
- Tribes imply territorial nature (and associated defense?), whereas flock implies ‘all places are alike to us’ (assuming ample resources).
- Tribes imply we prefer others who we see as being ‘like us’, whereas flocks are more egalitarian. Nancy Milford’s ‘U versus Non-U’ would be quintessentially tribal in that view.
- Or have I misunderstood the point above? Is it more that you see the word tribe carrying the implication that we understand that the group is made up of individuals, whereas the implication of the word flock is that we don’t really care about differences between the members?

Finally, your main concern is not with what the difference actually is between flock and tribe but what other people take away from the words and how that impacts their treatment of chickens.

Did I get it? Roughly?

I am weirdly happy you are explaining this because I have resisted the use of tribe ever since I saw you use it a long time ago in Catalonia days. The reason for my resistance is that to me the word carries many connotations that are completely different from how you appear to be using it and seemed very distant from the world of chickens!
Language, and the baggage words carry for individuals, is a very complex thing!

Tax:

 

[Shadrach]

Did I get it? Roughly?

Roughly yes.

The reason for my resistance is that to me the word carries many connotations that are completely different from how you appear to be using it and seemed very distant from the world of chickens!

You would need to cite some examples here.

 

[Perris]

I have resisted the use of tribe ever since I saw you use it a long time ago in Catalonia days. The reason for my resistance is that to me the word carries many connotations that are completely different from how you appear to be using it and seemed very distant from the world of chickens!
Language, and the baggage words carry for individuals, is a very complex thing!

ditto. I read some ethnography / anthropology a long time ago and it made me very wary of the word tribe, used with humans never mind any other species. For me it imports inappropriate baggage into the bird world.

Here's a brief overview of the issues
https://www.anthroencyclopedia.com/entry/tribe

 

[Shadrach]

ditto. I read some ethnography / anthropology a long time ago and it made me very wary of the word tribe, used with humans never mind any other species. For me it imports inappropriate baggage into the bird world.

Here's a brief overview of the issues
https://www.anthroencyclopedia.com/entry/tribe

There you go. I feel the same about the word flock.

Yup, the term tribe with all its implications has most definitely fallen out of favour. It's not hard to see why and the link you provided points this out; it doesn't fit well with the way we are being socially engineered.

Similar reasoning applies to chickens. We don't want chickens to be tribal because of the way we want to keep them. I doubt it mattered much when they were running around in the jungle.

 

[RoyalChick]

You would need to cite some examples here.

I will give it a go.
I see @Perris has just posted something I have not yet read so as to give you my personal and uninformed perspective of what tribe implies to me.
For me a tribe is a group that is governed by a common set of rules (laws) and norms; would have rites and rituals that mark membership of the tribe, and rites of passage for joining the tribe; it would be exclusionary of other tribes except by treaty.
Emotionally it carries some baggage for me in the negative in the sense that it is a term of disparagement describing the primitive and ‘lesser’ people who live outside the rule of law and civilization as defined typically by colonialists.
It also carries some very positive baggage for me in the sense that I am (used to be) a bit of an oriental carpet buff, and I find tribal rugs, weavings etc. to be among the most stunning pieces of art.

 

[RoyalChick]

There you go. I feel the same about the word flock.

Yup, the term tribe with all its implications has most definitely fallen out of favour. It's not hard to see why and the link you provided points this out; it doesn't fit well with the way we are being socially engineered.

Similar reasoning applies to chickens. We don't want chickens to be tribal because of the way we want to keep them. I doubt it mattered much when they were running around in the jungle.

Indeed!
But I thought your main reason for wanting to use the word tribe is to shake up what other people think when they hear the word flock in order to have them think differently about chicken welfare.
That means knowing how others react to the two words (versus how you react to them) should matter.
Personally I attach very few connotations to the word flock. To me it is a word used to describe a group often but not always of birds. It also doesn’t (for me) imply anything about social interactions or living conditions.
Birds may live in a flock or just flock together to migrate. People flock to the latest fad.
I am sure by now you and everyone else is getting irritated at my semantic pedantry and I will go out and visit my chickens armed with a pot of blueberries.

Semantic pedantry tax

 

[Shadrach]

A quick comment, before I go and look at real chicken behaviour.

I live in one of the most racially diverse areas of Bristol. If one took a map one can divide the areas by race and nationality allowing for some boundary blurring. I love this feature of where I live, other find it threatening.
What hasn't happened despite the social engineers attempts is integration. Eventually assimilation will occur but we're a long way from that where I live and I would sorely miss being surrounded by all these different cultures. I can go half a mile North and get a dose of Asian culture, three distinct varieties. I can go East for a couple of miles and find mainly white Bristolians (I don't go there much) South West is mainly Polish and East European. I should do a map.
The point is, thankfully, integration hasn't really happened and although I'm white middle class, reasonably well educated and financial solvent (more or less) I wouldrather live in this area than just about any other in the city.

 

[Molpet]

For my mind I think,
Flock is a generic term for a group of birds, may or may not be related or same species. Mixed flocks of starling, grackles, cowbirds and red wing black birds migrate through here. Yes different species have different terms, rafter is a group of turkeys for example.
Herd is generic for group of hoofed animals. Maybe deer horses, goats ECT.

For me, Tribe implies a relationship similar to a pack of wolves. Leaders, offspring and an occasional newcomer that is a good fit. Trouble makers are driven off if possible.