Sheep Chat Thread

[TwinWillowAcres]

So I am considering getting a babydoll southdown sheep ewe and keeping it with a Nigerian Dwarf goat doe. These two animals are similar in size and diet... Just a difference in copper intake. (Easy to fix, just put some copper supplement over the goats grain when you milk Id think.) I have heard they can get along well too.

What are peoples thoughts on this pair? I live on a big suburban property but what that really means is my space is comparably tiny. I Am trying to maximize my animal species number for a variety of product and food. This would give me wool, dairy and possibly two different kinds of meat.

What are the space requirements for a tiny sheep like that? I have a nice secure 6ft wood suburban privacy fence to keep them in and anything substantial out. But my back yard is not exactly rural and so they could not be on pasture at all on some days. I would provide special hanging feeders and anything I could like toys to keep them busy on days like that. They would be kept inside a pen in my substantial garage and fed primarially quality hay. I would love to also grow fodder and sprout grains for them. If I can make them fit into the property I could feed them and keep them pretty healthy I think.

Also I have heard mixed things about babydoll southdown fleece. Some people say it is awful and hard to work with. Some people say it is like cashmere. Which is it really?

Babydoll ewes average about 110 lbs for yearlings and 140-150 lbs for mature ewes (the weights of my 3/4 Babydoll cross ewes). Personally I would rather keep two goats or two sheep together as they will be happier...sheep and goats do get along but their body language is different. I guess it's like keeping a dog and cat together, it can be done, they will become friends.

Sheep space requirements are 12 sq ft for a ewe in a shelter (double that if she has lambs) and 30 sq ft for a ewe for their lot space. Lambs require 8 sq ft of lot space and 6 sq ft of shelter space.

Most sheep will not play with toys. In fact, if you were to pen them up, I guarantee they will spend their days eating hay and sleeping. Mature sheep aren't interested in anything other than that. Lambs may jump and play with each other, but I have not seen them play with anything.

Sheep would be fine with just a regular hay feeder stocked with grass hay (orchard, timothy, fescue, etc is all good). I have moved my sheep into my garage just overnight for a thunderstorm (when they were under my deck with a slotted roof/mydeck) and they made it stinky. The moisture/humidity they produce may make the paint on your walls messed up. It would probably be better if you could just build an 8x4 or 8x8 shelter for them made with 8x4 pieces of plywood (so the shelter is 4' tall) and then make a pen around that. They will likely be happier there than in your garage.

IMO fodder is a waste of time and money. Depending on the prices of your hay. Because of the moisture in fodder, you would need to feed a Babydoll sheep 13-14 lbs of fodder daily just to meet their dry matter requirements. That's a lot. Just stick with hay. And then let them graze your lawn every so often. Just make sure if there have been any herbicides, fertilizers, etc, the withdrawal times are ok for the sheep to graze.

Here are photos of some fleeces my ewes sheared this past year...
This is a four year old 3/4 Babydoll ewe.


She was bred to her twin brother and she had twin ewe lambs, these are their lamb fleeces.

 

[WallabyOfChaos]

We finally wrapped up our winter lambing season last week and I just got some pictures of some of the lambs yesterday. We ended up with 84 live lambs out of 58 ewes in a 28 day lambing period. These ewes were bred back in July right after they weaned their spring lambs.







I am not going to claim to be an "expert" on sheep, largely in part because I believe that since production systems and management needs within different production systems are so varied that very often there is no one particular "right" answer to fit everyone. I believe one may become an "expert" in their own methods, but I think it would be impossible to become an "expert" in the species or industry as a whole. These are my thoughts based upon countless hours of research combined with our own personal experiences running a commercial sheep operation. I think it is fitting to mention that our sheep are not pets or a hobby. Raising sheep is what we do for a living and sheep are what pays the bills on this outfit.

As for hair sheep being "fragile" and "needing" a barn for shelter, we have not found this to be true. Our hair sheep do not have a barn or shed. They use natural shelter provided by the terrain of the pasture and trees and other vegetation. A good windbreak and a full belly go a long way when the temperature dips and the weather turns. Most of the lambs in these pictures were actually born in below freezing temperatures. Sheep can handle a lot more than most people think and every winter our sheep deal with single-digit low temperatures, sub-sero windchills, blowing snow, and freezing rain with no problems. This picture is from December 2011:



It started snowing early in the morning Christmas eve and the snow kept up through the night and by daylight Christmas morning we had several inches of snow on the ground. The flock spread out in a dry creek bed to get out of the wind and was no worse for wear when the weather quit. They did not stand around crying and bawling waiting to be pampered and babied.
This is what it looked like when we went out to feed Christmas morning:


There's nothing like fresh snow to make a white sheep look absolutely filthy.

Now to the barn subject. Unfortunately we learned the hard way a long time ago that an improperly built barn is a breeding ground for serious problems. Ventilation is super, super important. Dust and ammonia are common causes for pneumonia and other respiratory issues in infections in confined critters. If I were to build a shed for sheep and/or goats I would make it a simple two-sided run in type shed that is longer than it is deep, and about 6 feet tall. It would have a wall on the north side and on which ever side the prevailing winds come from the rest of the year (it's the west for us). Now this next one is a big, huge, enormous deal! My shed would be fairly shallow to allow sunlight to touch every bit of the floor all the way to the back wall at some point in the day. The sunlight will help keep the dirt under the barn "clean" by making a really, really tough living environment for unwanted pathogens. The higher roof and more open design will assure plenty of ventilation (especially in the summer time if this will be the primary source of shade), plus I don't want to have to duck and crouch each time I need to go inside. Pretty much just something to knock the wind off of them and a dry place to stand is quite adequate for penned livestock.

Here is a link to a sheep guide that has a lot of good information about general care as well as some approximate space requirements. The space requirements are approximate as actual sizes will vary based upon the size of the sheep in question.
http://www.admani.com/Sheep/Sheep Guide 2011.pdf

Other good sheep links are:
sheep101.info
http://sheep101.info/201/index.html

About the copper requirement, I believe sheep and goats are pretty similar unless in milk, but otherwise rather the same. Dark haired animals have about 6 times the need for copper than white haired ones do, so adjust according to color.

I have never read anything anywhere that suggests that coat color has anything to do with copper requirements, toxicity susceptibility, or otherwise. If you could provide some links or sources with that information I would appreciate it. A study done by Purdue University in the U.S. has shown that breed can affect susceptibility to copper toxicity, and that the medium wool British and European breeds, down breeds (Southdowns, etc.), and Texels are very sensitive to copper levels. The same study showed that fine wooled breeds are not as sensitive and Finn sheep were the most copper resistant breed used in the study. Hair sheep were not mentioned so I a guessing that they were not used in the study. Here is the link to that article: http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/coppertox.html
This same study states that sheep need a minimum of 4 to 8 ppm copper daily for their bodies to function properly, and that copper toxicity can occur at levels as low as 25 ppm.
The general consensus among feed manufacturers in the U.S. is that the copper requirements for goats are very close to that of cattle - far too high for sheep. Here is the label for one of Purina Mills goat mineral supplements: http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/NobleGoatMineral/default.aspx
You can see that the guaranteed analysis shows a minimum copper level of 1,750 ppm, that's 70 times higher than toxic levels for sheep! This is why it is so very important to always read the feed labels. Products labelled for sheep and goats need to be checked carefully as it is nearly impossible to get a complete formulation that will suit the needs of both species at the same time, either the product will be deficient for the goat or toxic for the sheep.
We use a Purina sheep mineral that comes in a grey bag. It is not listed on the Purina website. It has a guaranteed analysis of 5 ppm minimum with a max of 15 ppm. This is a "no added copper" mineral, but it still has copper in it because some level of copper occurs naturally in the ingredients. I think 10 to 15 ppm copper max is a good place to be.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Thanks for the info on copper levels and shelters! I was pretty sure that goats needed far more copper than sheep could handle, it's good to know that is especially important for Southdowns. I will just stick with my original plan of feeding the goat grains away from the sheep and lacing it with a copper supplement... Otherwise giving them both sheep-safe minerals.

The reason I am still strongly considering my garage is because one wall of my garage is a door that opens up completely to my back yard under an awning, plus there are windows and doors in other walls for good ventilation. This is not like most garages with just the door to the driveway and a couple of small windows that do not open. In a pinch I can open the driveway-side door too, or even just crack it open 1-2 feet making my garage like a tunnel that wind can blow right through in the summer. In the winter that door is closed and it becomes well ventilated but not drafty and if we get temps in the -10's with -30's windchill like we got this last week I can close the door and it'll maintain a temperature 10-20 degrees higher than outside. It's cool in the summer and not drafty in the winter. I already keep my rabbits in there (they like it dry and cool) and it's pretty ideal for them. Not super dusty either and with built in drains on the floor, it's hard to beat for cleanup. I still think fresh wood chips layered a half-foot deep will be easy for cleanup and will help keep joints cushioned off of the floor and keep dust down. Urine will simply drain away from the wood chips into the drain in the floor, what little doesn't will be quickly broken down by the massive amounts of carbon, and I can rake them out and replace them every few months without much effort.

In any case I will probably give it a shot and see how it turns out. You won't know until you try, right? It's months away anyhow.

 

[WallabyOfChaos]

That's exactly it. You never know until you try, and I'm sure that you will work out something that fits exactly what you need. You may look in to getting some rubber stall mats to go down on your concrete under the shavings to help cushion it a bit more too. Tractor Supply usually puts their 4 ft. by 6 ft. trailer/stall mats on sale rather often. Another handy thing about the concrete is that you can effectively bleach it if necessary.

You can buy a copper supplement bolus through most online livestock supply stores, and you may be able to get it from your local farm store or veterinarian. It is called Copasure.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=177dd401-ee37-4eec-899b-aeb38b98e6d3

 

[ChocolateMouse]

So much info and support on here, I can't thank you all enough! I can't say I have gotten so much info and support out of an animal community thus far... I think I may end up liking sheep people quite a bit. ;3
I know so much more about how big I am going to make my pen and how I am going to set it up now! Rubber stall mats are a great idea and I can provide a VERY substantial pen for the pair of animals considering the space needs listed above. I am assuming that the goat will need a bit more space than the sheep despite being smaller because goats are more active and I have factored that in too. The pen will be between 16'X5' and 20'X6', so between 80 and 120sq ft for the pair and any offspring, which will be staggered so there's only one mother animal at a time. This meets the needs of a miniature sheep quite nicely giving the 25 sq ft for a mom and two lambs, another 25sq ft for the goat, and then at least an additional 30 sq ft for just having more space!
I'll line the bottom with rubber mats and a thick layer of fresh wood chips. Down the middle will be a divider running almost to the back wall, creating two "rooms" and giving me a space I can easily divide in an emergency or for kidding/lambing. In one "room" I will put the feeder, in the other I will put the water so they have to go back and forth several times a day. In each "room" I will also put in some things to climb on and hide behind, areas to curl up in, etc. I think this will keep the animals comfortable and happy during the times I can't be there to let them roam my yard, or the weather is too inclimate... Which around here the weather can refuse to cooperate unfortunately often.

Then on nice days they can go run in my back yard and nibble up all my weeds like my plantago and my dandelions and they can chew on my shrubs and the like... And almost every day they can go across the street and be tied out to mow my sister's amazingly lush and chemical-free lawn while I walk her tiny dogs! Sounds like a plan to me!

 

[boxofpens]

Question for all of the sheep owners from a wannabe sheep owner

I keep getting told that sheep will compact the soil so badly that nothing will grow. That they're worse than cows in regards to compaction. Do ya'll find that to be the case?

I really want some sheep, not a lot, from 2-7 only, and I'm hoping that rotating around our 10 acres will help if compaction IS actually a problem.

I just found this thread, and I haven't read through it yet (will be doing that next), so I apologize if this subject has already been discussed.

 

[theuglyduckling]

Question for all of the sheep owners from a wannabe sheep owner

I keep getting told that sheep will compact the soil so badly that nothing will grow. That they're worse than cows in regards to compaction. Do ya'll find that to be the case?

I really want some sheep, not a lot, from 2-7 only, and I'm hoping that rotating around our 10 acres will help if compaction IS actually a problem.

I just found this thread, and I haven't read through it yet (will be doing that next), so I apologize if this subject has already been discussed.

i have two and that hasnt happened to me.

 

[boxofpens]

i have two and that hasnt happened to me.

Thanks for your response. I know next to nothing about sheep, but would really like to get a few.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: I think I mentioned the source of that info, but anyway, it's Pat Coleby's info and is backed up by scientific studies which she cites in every book she writes. I don't have links to the book sitting on my shelf, sorry. You'll have to see if someone has scanned her books online, or borrow them from a library, or buy them for that.

There's various studies done on the same subject as it regards humans, so if you do a search you may find something like what you're after but in studies on human health. It's fairly well known, in Australia anyway. Pat Coleby's a well-regarded expert in goats and some of her observations apply to sheep as well, and the same observations have held true for chickens, cattle, cats and dogs regarding copper. They also hold true for humans, as I mentioned. Pat Coleby ran commercial goat operations for decades in Australia but I don't know how much of her info is available or applicable in other countries since as I mentioned before, Australia is notoriously low in copper compared to most other countries. Generally though the scientific consensus is that dark-coated individuals require more copper than light coated ones and can survive a higher dietary dosage of copper than light coated ones.
Quote: Yeah, obviously because they're not pets, as you said, lol! Nice flock, by the way.
Quote: Hair sheep generally aren't fragile, but I don't think anybody said they need a barn, just ability to get out of the weather if they feel so inclined. I tried to treat my hair sheep the way I treated my wool sheep and she didn't cope. Now she's got a simple sheetmetal lean-to so she can get out of the rain when it's pouring, but asides from than, only natural shelter, and precious little of it.

Also, yours are from a colder country, so I'd bet they're a lot more cold-weather-hardy than Australian sheep, and conversely I'd bet our sheep are a lot more hot-weather-hardy than yours. Genetic lines make a difference, as you noted when talking about differing copper needs between sheep breeds.
Quote: Very true, a multi-stock-lick or supplement is generally a misnomer or very low-nutrition feed.

@boxofpens:
Quote: I've never heard that before. I would think with that tiny flock you're planning to have on 10 acres you should be fine. If any animal, even a chicken, repeatedly walks the same line in the ground, of course the ground would end up somewhat compacted, but small stock aren't going to make any serious compaction as far as I know unless you're running them in very high numbers on extremely delicate ground like swampy stuff, which obviously isn't ideal in the first place.

I have not seen any animal compact the ground as badly as large and heavy cloven-hoofed animals like cows, as they chop it and keep mixing it together when it's wet and they're overconfined or lack any other water source or feed source in their paddock. But that's a worst case scenario of husbandry there, not something you're likely to find with your sheep if you rotate regularly and they have adequate feed per paddock to compel them to spread out in search of it rather than make a beeline for the same trough day in day out.

Best wishes.

 

[boxofpens]

@chooks4life

That's what I was thinking as well. If managed properly, I can't see where they could possibly be worse than cows.

Re: Copper
I remember reading about coat color and copper toxicity as well. Something to do with keratin. Also, a copper deficiency will cause the fur or hair to curl at the end. It was in Pat Colbey's book 'Natural Cattle Care', I believe. I'm not sure about sheep folks here in the US, but I know a few cattle people that refer to her quite often.