should I pull this scab off?

[CoriM]

I have a very large pekin and she's been limping for about over a month. I don't think it started with a scab, because I remember inspecting her feet right away and thinking she must have strained her leg. But she developed a scab soon after I noticed the limp. I've been soaking her twice a day, applying triple antibiotic and PRID, and keeping it bandaged probably 80% of the time for the past couple of weeks. At one point I picked off what you can see in the center area of the scab. I didn't find a kernel and it just bled a tiny bit at the edges, then quickly scabbed over again. Is this definitely bumble or could it just be a callous? It seems to be growing and is a little red - maybe a little bloody - around the edges if the bandage is left off for several hours. Should I keep soaking and bandaging or should I try to pull the whole thing off? The scab seems fairly attached and soft due to the ointments and wrapping

. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Chickenlover0810]

that is no scab that is bumble foot
https://www.fresheggsdaily.blog/2012/03/bumblefoot.html

 

[CoriM]

Hi Isaac,
Thanks for your input. That's exactly what I did today. I got most of the outer scab off and tried to pull something whitish out from underneath. It did bleed quite a bit. I dabbed with clear iodine and packed with triple antibiotic ointment and wrapped it. I know it looks like it's so far along, but it's really developed so quickly! I've been keeping tabs on it for the last month - after I noticed the first little scab I used prid for a few days and it came off and looked like it was going to be okay, but then started growing again. I haven't been neglecting her at all, just was hoping that the soaking and bandaging would keep it at bay. I guess I was wrong there. It was complicated by a couple weekends where we had to be out of town and I didn't want to go digging and create a wound, knowing I was going to have to leave her unbandaged or in a dirty bandage for a few days. Ugh, hate the cursed bumble. Thanks for your support! I was planning on leaving the foot bandaged for 24 hours before changing, what do you think?

 

[Isaac 0]

@Isaac 0 Thanks for the links Isaac. What dosage for cephalexin - I see 250 mg and 500. same for the ciprofloxacin. Do you think one is better than the other for bumblefoot?

That is up to you. Ciprofloxacin is part of the same family class as Enrofloxacin (Baytril) so it is a stronger type of antibiotic. Cephalexin is a bit milder, and safer as far as side effects, but it's used quite frequently in case's skin infections.

If she were mine, I might go with Cephalexin. The dose is 35-50mg/kg PO four times daily.
So, if she weighs around five pounds, and if we went with 40mg as a dose. You could dose as suggested,

5lbs=2.26kg. 2.26 x 40mg= 90.4mg four times a day.

If you get the 500mg pills, crush one tablet using a mortar and pestle, then mix the powder into 10ml of sterile water. The powder won't dissolve completely to its important you shake the container during the process for even distribution. After the powder is mixed in with the water, you'll be left with a solution that contains 50mg of cephalexin per ml. That said, you can give her 1.8ml of the solution four times a day.

 

[Isaac 0]

Cori, I would suspect the discoloration to be associated with the necrotic tissue previously embedded in the tissue. From my view, the area looks to be healing well; with time, you should be able to see complete epithelial migration over the tissue.

 

[Isaac 0]

What are Nsaids? I only have some Terbinafine Hydrichloride (7 doses) as well as some sulfamethox. I don't think they're apporpriate for bumblefoot - I think I asked my vet last time I had a duck with bumble. I'm not bringing this one in to the vet. The only time I've brought a duck in for bumble her infection grew systemic and I had to put her down. It seems like the vet doesn't do much better than I do. But maybe I should order some fish antibiotics?

An NSAID is a Non-steroidal- anti-inflammatory drug. The medications you have are not NSAID's. If you have any Meloxicam, Carprofen, or ketoprofen. That can be used. I might be inclined to her start her on antibiotics once the core is out. You could get something like Enrofloxacin, Ciprofloxacin, or Cephalexin for this.

https://allbirdproducts.com/products/enrofloxacin-10
https://www.chewy.com/fish-aid-antibiotics-cephalexin/dp/185208
https://www.chewy.com/fish-aid-antibiotics-ciprofloxacin/dp/185215

 

[KaleIAm]

What are Nsaids? I only have some Terbinafine Hydrichloride (7 doses) as well as some sulfamethox. I don't think they're apporpriate for bumblefoot - I think I asked my vet last time I had a duck with bumble. I'm not bringing this one in to the vet. The only time I've brought a duck in for bumble her infection grew systemic and I had to put her down. It seems like the vet doesn't do much better than I do. But maybe I should order some fish antibiotics?

I have some extra Nsaids I can give you. You'll have to give it to her orally with a syringe, though. I will give you extra syringes, too. It is a liquid once a day medication for inflammation and pain. I also have some soft duck boots you can borrow to help while she heals if you are interested. I'm off work at 3:30 today.

 

[CoriM]

@isaac o - I just want to confirm dosage. You said 40 mg 4x a day for a 5 pound duck. My duck is ten so I thought splitting the 250 mg into three parts would be close to double that - 80 mg. But your last message said 180 mg 4xs a day. Can you confirm whether it would be 80 or 180 4xs a day?

 

[KaleIAm]

@KaleIAm Thanks Kale - so generous! Sorry, I'm just seeing your message now. I'll pull the bandage off this afternoon and take a look and a photo before I put a new one on. I'll order the fish antibiotics just in case but if it seems bad maybe I'll take you up on your offer of meds. I also have a neoprene booty but I ordered a size too large and she was tripping on it. The bandage I placed seemed to stay pretty well.

It's my pleasure, anything to to help a duck! I have plenty of extra so I am very happy to share. We can bring it to you, or leave it on my porch and you can pick it up anytime - I'll be home after 5 today. If she is limping she is probably in pain and it will help her. But totally your call. I know how stressful giving meds is.

I also have a bunch of extra 6 duck egg clear cartons I don't need anymore. Would you like those?

Have we talked about their environment and bumblefoot prevention? I used to get recurring bumbles, but I asked my vet how I could prevent them and she recommended I make changes to their substrate and aviary. I did and haven't had bumbles for years!

Ultimately everything my vet recommended had to do with getting their feet on softer surfaces. I had pine or aspen wood shavings in their barn room and my vet told me to switch to a very thick layer (minimum 4 inch) of hay or straw. I felt that the shavings were soft, as I used to hang out with them in there quite often, but she assured me that to small feet it was like standing on a hard board for many hours for days on end. For outside she told me to remove all rocks, boards and gravel from their aviary and only have dirt or grass. I was pretty sure she was delusional and it wasn't going to work, but decided since I was paying her thousands of dollars I might as well do what she said. It worked! It was inconvenient switching everything, but a lot nicer than dealing with repeated bumbles.

If I've already told you this stuff, sorry!

 

[KaleIAm]

@KaleIAm Thanks again for your generous offer. I ordered the fish antibiotics. Do you think I should also try your meds along with that? I would be happy to pick it up from you.

Regarding substrate, arghhhh! I started with straw, some shavings mixed in, and river rock pebbles around the pond area. When I got my first bumble I freaked out and took out the pebbles and put in sand around the pond. That was a disaster. It was constantly wet, wouldn't drain, and so hard with poop. You would literally have to scoop the poop off the top of it several times a day, replacing the sand constantly. I got some more bumbles so figured maybe it wasn't the pebbles after all and I put them back and it's way easier to keep clean as I can easily hose them off several times a day. I switched to wood shavings in their sleeping area because it became so hard to scoop poop out of straw. It's an area much smaller than yours, so I clean it every morning. And, the last time I got straw at the beginning of summer, it was the coarsest straw I'd ever seen. Huge long pieces and sharp. I wouldn't even put it in their coop and stuck it in my garden instead. It's hit or miss with the straw, which I get from the Issaquah Grange. Sometimes it's soft and like a more chopped straw, which is awesome, but there's no way of knowing what type you're going to get when you buy it there. And putting straw right up to the edge of the pond was so messy also as it got so wet and they were constantly getting it in the water. That's how I've arrived at river rock and wood shavings, which I thought lots of people use for their ducks. My ducks do go out a couple times a day and also walk on soft grass and also regular wood chips, which they love to dig in and I can't keep them out of since they're all over my property. I will have to think on this issue as I HATE dealing with bumblefoot. Where do you get your straw?

Whenever I had bumbles the vet always gave me metacam - the medicine I'm offering. I'm not sure if it just helps the bird feel less pain or if reducing the inflammation helps with healing, too. But if you are going to give medication anyway it won't be that much harder to give one more at the same time. And this one is only one daily! I hate the idea of my ducks being in pain so I always gave it to them for less severe bumbles.

I completely understand about the drainage issue. We used to have this lovely pea gravel set up with pipes underneath. I just hosed the poop right off! It was amazing. I was disappointed to get rid of it all.

That sounds really frustrating about the sand. Ugh. Actually, my vet told me that a thick layer of sand would be ok for their feet, but we were worried about crop impaction if they ate it. But your sand experience was horrible so now I'm really glad I never tried it!

Straw quality can vary for me as well. Hay tends to be reliable, but is twice as expensive. Usually I use whatever straw is available, unless it is just awful then I just buy the cheapest hay they have. I buy mine from the hardware store in Carnation. This summer they sometimes don't have any! Their supplier can't always meet their demands, so you may want to call ahead if you buy from there.

Straw is harder to work with than wood shavings. I completely agree. I really liked that about wood shavings, it was so easy to spot clean. But I'll struggle with wads of poopy straw instead of bumblefoot.

I wonder if there is someone that sells chopped straw? It does work much better. Maybe First Fruits?