Show off your Delawares! *PIC HEAVY*

[kathyinmo]

Those nice red combs are dead give aways ....... those are boys!

Yes, the girls are usually lighter than the boys.

 

[GhostRider65]

Quote:
TYTYTY so very much...I hope I have 3 hens and the 2 others are roo's, my BR are not so lucky 4 out of 5 ordered roosters, and I think my SS are an outrageous amount of roos to hens seems 8 of the 11 are roosters....gggggggggrrrrrrr I'm so mad will never order chicks from the same place again.

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
If you don't "worry" about it from the get go. You can very easily breed them so that you can't "fix" the problem. Breeding for size/type should be what everyone is wanting to do. But, if the correct genetics for them are not present or not corrected, you may breed out what you need to "fix" them from the start. And that's providing that what is needed, is in the line that you have. At that point your only option is going to be outcrossing or dropping that "line" and trying a different one.

one example being.

Adult roo will look correct and still carry ID/id+(incorrect), when ID/ID is correct. And it is a sexlinked gene.

bred to ID/-(correct) hens will result in ID/ID(correct) and ID/id+ roos, hens can be ID/-(correct) and id+/-(incorrect).

Now if you're keeping and choose only based on best "type", with that same line your F1 generation will be roos of id+/id+(incorrect),and ID/id+(incorrect), and all hens can be id+/-(incorrect).

F2 roos will be id+/id+(incorrect) roos and all hens will be id+/-(incorrect).

At that point in time. you will no longer have any hope of correcting it unless you outcross and all of them will show greenish or pale legs to a varying degree depending on what else is in their genetic background. That is also not taking into account other things that will be effected if they aren't correct also. Of which there are a few others that will effect shank color in combination with or lack of other genes.

That can also vary depending on what is in the genetic background of the parent stock. And what has been outcrossed in the past in that line. To my knowledge there isn't any line of Delawares that do not have outcrossing in the background. Hence why this is an issue in the first place. There are many combinations of genes that can effect shank color, but they will also effect other things as well, and may or may not be as apparent at differing ages, also dependent on whether it is a sex linked trait or not. Of which there are both sex linked and otherwise that will show effects to varying degrees.

The green leg or pale leg issue can be an indicator of more then one genetic problem in the birds. If SOP is to be followed, there shouldn't be any way a bird with any of those problems is not identified against the SOP in "breed correct/show quality" birds. Of course that is providing that the judge/breeder is actually "fluent" in what should be in the "breed" and not just glaring over the obvious. Pale legs can be a indicator of white skin instead of yellow, and can also indicate gray under fluff(down) instead of white(silver). Those are not the only things, just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's very easy to breed out what is "correct" if someone isn't aware of it. Considering there is such a mashup of genes in the current Dels out there, it's going to continue to be a problem until it is "fixed". Once that happens there won't be as many variations when breeding differing lines.

Now when everyone reads this, I'm not knocking on anyone's birds. But if they aren't made aware of those problems and working towards fixing them. They never will and may not be able to without outcrossing. And then the "fun" begins all over again trying to breed back to correct genotype.


edit:
BTW.. this will apply to any breed with yellow legs.

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
If you don't "worry" about it from the get go. You can very easily breed them so that you can't "fix" the problem. Breeding for size/type should be what everyone is wanting to do. But, if the correct genetics for them are not present or not corrected, you may breed out what you need to "fix" them from the start. And that's providing that what is needed, is in the line that you have. At that point your only option is going to be outcrossing or dropping that "line" and trying a different one.

one example being.

Adult roo will look correct and still carry ID/id+(incorrect), when ID/ID is correct. And it is a sexlinked gene.

bred to ID/-(correct) hens will result in ID/ID(correct) and ID/id+ roos, hens can be ID/-(correct) and id+/-(incorrect).

Now if you're keeping and choose only based on best "type", with that same line your F1 generation will be roos of id+/id+(incorrect),and ID/id+(incorrect), and all hens can be id+/-(incorrect).

F2 roos will be id+/id+(incorrect) roos and all hens will be id+/-(incorrect).

At that point in time. you will no longer have any hope of correcting it unless you outcross and all of them will show greenish or pale legs to a varying degree depending on what else is in their genetic background. That is also not taking into account other things that will be effected if they aren't correct also. Of which there are a few others that will effect shank color in combination with or lack of other genes.

That can also vary depending on what is in the genetic background of the parent stock. And what has been outcrossed in the past in that line. To my knowledge there isn't any line of Delawares that do not have outcrossing in the background. Hence why this is an issue in the first place. There are many combinations of genes that can effect shank color, but they will also effect other things as well, and may or may not be as apparent at differing ages, also dependent on whether it is a sex linked trait or not. Of which there are both sex linked and otherwise that will show effects to varying degrees.

The green leg or pale leg issue can be an indicator of more then one genetic problem in the birds. If SOP is to be followed, there shouldn't be any way a bird with any of those problems is not identified against the SOP in "breed correct/show quality" birds. Of course that is providing that the judge/breeder is actually "fluent" in what should be in the "breed" and not just glaring over the obvious. Pale legs can be a indicator of white skin instead of yellow, and can also indicate gray under fluff(down) instead of white(silver). Those are not the only things, just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's very easy to breed out what is "correct" if someone isn't aware of it. Considering there is such a mashup of genes in the current Dels out there, it's going to continue to be a problem until it is "fixed". Once that happens there won't be as many variations when breeding differing lines.

Now when everyone reads this, I'm not knocking on anyone's birds. But if they aren't made aware of those problems and working towards fixing them. They never will and may not be able to without outcrossing. And then the "fun" begins all over again trying to breed back to correct genotype.


edit:
BTW.. this will apply to any breed with yellow legs.

"Do not worry about it YET" Baby chicks don't always show the yellow in the feet and shanks. Trust me, I am all about following the APA SOP. I gave that advice as a long time breeder of yellow legged poultry, based on what I saw in pictures posted here, and with plenty of disclaimers.
What do you think is going on with these birds...?

Walt

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
There are a number of things going on. And if they aren't genotype correct in their first test breeding, then they better be worrying about more then just type/size.

I do know there are some out there that were outcrossed (read CX,)with white legged birds, hence pale legs. And that's not to say that all pale legged birds are an indicator of that. And yes that can by "fixed". Also considering that Barring will "hide" some of those genetics until following generations. Along with that comes skin color and down color.

Now depending on whether someone tried to create their "own line" or meeting demand for "heritage delaware chicks" and doesn't realize that they should be eWH/eWH and not eb/eb or eWH/eb which when comparing phenotype some may not be apparent until later generations. Hence the inconsistency. Which can also happen when outcrossing to barred rocks and not realizing that phenotype is not a direct indicator of genotype. Which may not breed true to breed depending on which offspring are selected and if they are sold as "Delawares" just because they happen to look like a Del. Even though genetically they're screwed up. Cross them back to a genotype correct hen and watch what happens. Which if someone does on purpose for some reason or another. Then they should at least tell whom ever they sold them to or breed them back to correct genotype before trying to sell them. Hatchery's as well and breeders included.

Now take into consideration the reverse when a Del is put over New Hamp hens. Roos all look correct, but they will be S/s+(incorrect). Won't breed true and will yellow/or bleed red(rust) like there's no tomorrow in the F1 generation and following ones if not breed for genotype.

Then those birds get bred by someone who thinks they're getting "heritage Delawares", find themselves with birds hatching out with what should be DQ faults all over the map. But how many judges would DQ a Del for pale legs? Of would even know for that matter... Then if they don't, and they place, well here go again. Starting the cycle all over.

Staying with the ID/id+ example. Those birds can look pale yellow legged as chicks and yellow up more as adults. Most of the time roos. But hens as well depending on what other genes are present, which in combination can effect melanin and epidermal & dermal pigment in shanks and how much they are displayed or not.

B - sex-linked barring dilutes both epidermal & dermal pigment, plus is also incompletely dominant. So a homozygous (B/B)(correct) barred rooster with id+/id+(incorrect) dermal pigment genes can still have yellow (or white) legs.

Edit to add
B and ID loci are close together. So getting those to segregate out for B-id+ verses B-ID isn't going to happen with only putting a few chicks on the ground. And that's hoping that you still have some birds that are B-ID linked and not B-id+ linked. And Barred rocks are supposed to be ID/ID, not id+/id+. So any crosses or trying to breed a new line is going to result in the same problem with that loci linkage.

That right there could keep someone thinking that "green tinged" legs are what they should be, and they are not. Even though they may "look correct" at 12-16 weeks old, a bird like that will not breed true to a ID/- hen and a id+/- hen over a ID/ID roo(correct), will keep throwing roos that most won't be able to identify at 10 weeks. I have test bred both and many other combination's this year. And that person will keep thinking that's "normal".

Ask yourself this?.. have you ever seen a show quality New Hampshire with green legs, white legs or pale legs? And if you did, would you breed them that way? Would you DQ them at a show?

Could I tell you what everyone's "problem" with their birds are. Not on you life. Not without test breeding them and segregating what is in their background. But I can tell you what I'm seeing isn't correct and if they have green, pale or white legs. They are not genotype correct.

This is why I said. Telling someone to "not worry about it yet" isn't going to help them. And may very well put them into a position they can't fix it, if they concentrate on type alone. Two generations and they will not have any way to "fix" it without outcrossing. Point them in the direction of finding out what they have going on would be a much better idea rather then keep breeding without know how or what to "fix" breed for.

btw. if you're breeding green or pale legged chicks that yellow up as they get older. You ever happen to check to make sure they're yellow skinned and not white?. I have both type chicks on the ground right now.

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
There are a number of things going on. And if they aren't genotype correct in their first test breeding, then they better be worrying about more then just type/size.

I do know there are some out there that were outcrossed (read CX,)with white legged birds, hence pale legs. And that's not to say that all pale legged birds are an indicator of that. And yes that can by "fixed". Also considering that Barring will "hide" some of those genetics until following generations. Along with that comes skin color and down color.

Now depending on whether someone tried to create their "own line" or meeting demand for "heritage delaware chicks" and doesn't realize that they should be eWH/eWH and not eb/eb or eWH/eb which when comparing phenotype some may not be apparent until later generations. Hence the inconsistency. Which can also happen when outcrossing to barred rocks and not realizing that phenotype is not a direct indicator of genotype. Which may not breed true to breed depending on which offspring are selected and if they are sold as "Delawares" just because they happen to look like a Del. Even though genetically they're screwed up. Cross them back to a genotype correct hen and watch what happens. Which if someone does on purpose for some reason or another. Then they should at least tell whom ever they sold them to or breed them back to correct genotype before trying to sell them. Hatchery's as well and breeders included.

Now take into consideration the reverse when a Del is put over New Hamp hens. Roos all look correct, but they will be S/s+(incorrect). Won't breed true and will yellow/or bleed red(rust) like there's no tomorrow in the F1 generation and following ones if not breed for genotype.

Then those birds get bred by someone who thinks they're getting "heritage Delawares", find themselves with birds hatching out with what should be DQ faults all over the map. But how many judges would DQ a Del for pale legs? Of would even know for that matter... Then if they don't, and they place, well here go again. Starting the cycle all over.

Staying with the ID/id+ example. Those birds can look pale yellow legged as chicks and yellow up more as adults. Most of the time roos. But hens as well depending on what other genes are present, which in combination can effect melanin and epidermal & dermal pigment in shanks and how much they are displayed or not.

B - sex-linked barring dilutes both epidermal & dermal pigment, plus is also incompletely dominant. So a homozygous (B/B)(correct) barred rooster with id+/id+(incorrect) dermal pigment genes can still have yellow (or white) legs.

Edit to add
B and ID loci are close together. So getting those to segregate out for B-id+ verses B-ID isn't going to happen with only putting a few chicks on the ground. And that's hoping that you still have some birds that are B-ID linked and not B-id+ linked. And Barred rocks are supposed to be ID/ID, not id+/id+. So any crosses or trying to breed a new line is going to result in the same problem with that loci linkage.

That right there could keep someone thinking that "green tinged" legs are what they should be, and they are not. Even though they may "look correct" at 12-16 weeks old, a bird like that will not breed true to a ID/- hen and a id+/- hen over a ID/ID roo(correct), will keep throwing roos that most won't be able to identify at 10 weeks. I have test bred both and many other combination's this year. And that person will keep thinking that's "normal".

Ask yourself this?.. have you ever seen a show quality New Hampshire with green legs, white legs or pale legs? And if you did, would you breed them that way? Would you DQ them at a show?

Could I tell you what everyone's "problem" with their birds are. Not on you life. Not without test breeding them and segregating what is in their background. But I can tell you what I'm seeing isn't correct and if they have green, pale or white legs. They are not genotype correct.

This is why I said. Telling someone to "not worry about it yet" isn't going to help them. And may very well put them into a position they can't fix it, if they concentrate on type alone. Two generations and they will not have any way to "fix" it without outcrossing. Point them in the direction of finding out what they have going on would be a much better idea rather then keep breeding without know how or what to "fix" breed for.

btw. if you're breeding green or pale legged chicks that yellow up as they get older. You ever happen to check to make sure they're yellow skinned and not white?. I have both type chicks on the ground right now.

Dels were originally created from Barred Rock males and New Hamp females. They then used the sports from that mix to create the Dels. While some folks use RIR instead of NH's, that will have not change the leg color from yellow to white. It does give the birds a an incorrect type though. More of the brick shape as opposed to the rounder shape of the Del.....still....they are still using yellow legged birds. Other than someone getting hold of a completely screwed up bird that has white legs in it's background, there should be no problems keeping genetically yellow legs. From what I have seen so far it appears to me that it is a feed/environmental issue rather than a genetic problem. Again yellow legged chicks sometimes "look" like they have white legs in the beginning. White legs have to come from somewhere and granted people on BYC make all kinds of mixes, but while I have seen light yellow legs in Dels I have yet to see any with true white legs. I agree that anyone selling birds should tell the buyer what is really in them if they have been experimenting with non standard matings.

I have never seen a NH with green or white legs. I have seen some with pale yellow legs and a judge cannot DQ a bird for that. Anyone who does not check the skin color is simply a beginner. When you say you have both types of chicks on the ground......what do you mean? Do you have a lot of hands on experience raising yellow legged birds? I can't think of any white legged breed that would be put into Dels with expectation that it would improve the breed, so I doubt that there are many around .....even from hatcheries..... that have white leg genes.

Walt

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
I have to disagree that using a Rhode island verses a New Hampshire, that it doesn't make a difference. Because it most certainly will. In the expression of red and intensity of yellow and red not only in the shanks but also in possible expression of other traits in the plumage. And if either are crossed and the bird is sold as a "Delaware", someone is going to get a lot of surprises when trying to breed that bird back to a genotype correct Dels. But no, that isn't what I was getting at with "white" legs.

There are lines that have had a line of CX crossed into them for growth rate and overall size. Which is why some are seeing birds with white legs pop up in following generations when line bred. There isn't a "single gene" that controls yellow legs expression. It's a combination of many. Some more apparent then others in expression and some sex linked some not. Some linked closely with other Loci and harder to breed to segregate them. And it isn't just people on BYC breeding non standard or "standard" crosses. Which is what happens when the introduction of white into the background, and may not be apparent until segregated breeding is done. And I do have birds on the ground that show all of what I'm talking about.

Right now I also have line of birds, more apparent in the roos, that show white legs and yellow legs from the very same parents. Which is why I also brought up yellow skin. One of the roos that shows yellow legs also isn't homozygous for yellow skin and another is. And just to look at them (phenotype), you wouldn't be able to tell the difference until test bred against genotype correct hens. That's when all the "fun" begins for someone who doesn't know or expects at least their line of birds to be genotype and phenotype correct. Not necessarily "show birds" but at least correct enough that they can breed towards that if they so choose. And not fighting with genetics that should be there, against genetics that should not. And that's assuming they know enough about them to be able to make a "informed" decision as to what to breed for and what has to be fixed and what can be left till later.

And many will not know or may not care that they are also introducing genes, that may not be as readily apparent, as the major ones, into their lines by doing that. Even if they're outcrossing to "standard" stock ie: Barred rocks or New Hampshires. Which in itself isn't a bad thing, depending on the reasoning as to why they're doing it. Now whether or not they realize how to fix some of the "problems" introduced by doing that is another matter. Hatcheries and breeders alike.

From what I've learned, there are many Barred rocks and Delawares who are B/B(B/-) and id+/id+(id/-)(green legs that may yellow up with age, but hens will be pale). Which in itself will cause many of the problems that people are seeing when out crossed onto ID/ID(ID/-) birds. Which when looking at only phenotype, will produce anything from green legged birds or pale yellow that may/may not yellow up as they get older to birds which you can't tell the difference until you start breeding them and "anomolies" start showing up. Depending on what else is in their genetic background.

Which is why I posed those questions to you. It may not be a DQ for pale yellow legs, but it certainly is going to be an indicator that something is genetically amiss.

Now after doing more studying into the background of both Barred rocks and New Hampshires, with differing "historical" lines of each. Reason being I was confronted with many of the same problems that people on here are having. Apparently no one seems to have the answers or they pass it off as "the alphabet soup" or they believe that genetic anomalies happen much more often then they actually do. Or they think it's all caused by feed or environment. Which some is, though not at the level most are thinking. So I took it upon myself to learn as much as I can about what interactions in genes have and what can come up in phenotype and not be a direct indicator of genotype. Will I claim to be an "expert", no, not even close, but I will back up what I"m talking about, as I've not only researched it, I've also been actively breeding it to test those very interactions.

What I've posed here is only a small part of the overall "genotype vs phoentype" problems that many are seeing. It isn't just one set of gene interactions, and it isn't going to be "fixed" in all lines in a couple of generations. And that's not taking into account any out crossing which is being done for various reasons.

edited for added insights and clarity

 

[fowlman01]

OK.for some reason I don't think we communicating well. NH/BR vs RIR/BR. Yes, I know there would be differences, especially in the body, but they all have yellow legs, so I can't understand how someone would come up with white legs. I am not talking about people who just throw chickens together, but serious breeders that know what they are working with.

My responses were about birds shown here in pics. Not worst case scenarios etc. Anyone that does not know where their birds came from or how they came about is always taking a chance. To begin with, I have done things with leg color that are supposed to be genetically impossible, so I don't hold a lot of faith in formulas etc. You do seem to understand that you can't tell what is really in a bird by looking at it........many here don't know that. I am not an expert either, but I have raised tens of thousands of yellow legged birds, most of them Rocks, so I have a pretty good idea how leg color works. I thought there were only two genes that affected leg color, but as I said I would rather go by my on the job training, so to speak.

I will stick with my position: if they don't have white skin and/or white legs it is probably a feed/environment thing. I understand that there are exceptions, but I would hate to see people culling birds before they try a few other relatively easy fixes. 95% of the people on this site believe everything they read here...so anyone giving advice has to be particularly careful what they post and that includes me. I don't post anything here that I haven't personally tried and I always say "this worked for me here".

Pale yellow legs is not always an indicator that something is amiss and in fact that is noted in the APA SOP. CAN it be an indicator that something is amiss....sure! But that is a very broad and in some cases an erroneous statement.

Walt

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
I agree, I don't think we're on the same page. I'm not saying that a NH/BR vs RIR/BR is going to breed white legs. What I stated is there are white legs in a line that some are breeding here. The reason I know that is that I'm breeding many of the same birds that others on here are as well. Now as far as differences in the two crosses, there are going to be more differences then just body type. And that's assuming that both lines are genotype correct as well.

Quote:
Stating that you've done things that are supposed to be "genetically impossible" should be your first clue there's more then 2 genes interactions that effect shank color. Now add in Barring and it's interactions on top of that.

I concede that you've put way more feet on the coop floor then I have. I can measure mine in the hundreds. Though I have to wonder, have your ever bred to identify those "impossible genetics" as you claim? I can go out the coop right now and look at 5 different segregation's that effect how yellow shank color is expressed. All phenotype (correct) but most genotype (incorrect). And some now at 17 weeks would be almost impossible to tell, had I not seen what took place from hatch to 17 weeks. Speaking strictly of phenotype(looks).

I'm more then aware that what you see one the outside is not an indication of exactly what is in the genetic make up. More so dependent upon other genes interactions that aren't readily apparent as age can be a factor as to when those genes are expressed. Also very dependent upon whether it's sex linked or not and if it happens to be closely linked. ie: B/-ID vs B/-id+. And how it can be differently expressed in Roos vs hens considering hens only get one dose, and the roo is going to dictate the majority of what gets passed on to the offspring.

I agree, experience is the best "teacher". Hence why I wouldn't tell anyone to cull any of their birds for any reason other then their own. That becomes their decision to use what ever is shared(with a grain of salt) and come to their own conclusions based on their out comes. Hence why I couldn't tell someone what's going on with their line of birds based upon pictures alone. Test breading is the only thing that's going to indicate that.

Quote:
Agreed, people should look at all possibilities and see what works for them. Though I will also stick to my conclusion that much of what I'm seeing and is being described, is very much genetic. Not to say that feed/environment can't be factors.

Quote:
That I will agree with you on. I guess I should have detailed that statement better. But in my case, I'm going to suspect genetics before anything else. That's just from the experiences I've had with Dels to date.

 

[Serrin]

BT2000 and Walt, I'd like to thank both of you for a very interesting exchange of posts! It's going to take me awhile to absorb all of that information and ideas, but I'm sure it's going to be well worth the effort. Thank you also for keeping it professional! So few have that knack any more these days! Thank you!!