Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[chicksnthestiks]

Blue in dogs IS recessive. It is a dilution of black - dd. Chocolate is the other dilution of black -bb. I am not talking about merle. Merle is not a color but rather a pattern. That is a whole different can of worms so to speak. And thanks for the complement....want them? lol

I showed and bred Shetland Sheepdogs so when you say blue I of course thought blue merle. But I was taught it is dominant because one parent has to have it or you dont get it. It does not hide like a recessive gene. Also it is a dilution because it dilutes a black dog to silver/grey and if you breed two merles you get the double dilution. Thats why I connect it to splash color in chickens because a splash bred to black gives you all blues, same as a double merle sheltie bred to a black (tri or bi color) gives you all blue merles. I have been in Shelties since 1982 and people have been working hard to figure all the color genes out and there is still more to learn. Chickens seem to be more complicated.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: From Henk's website: http://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator, about a third of the way down it talks about dog genetics and lists a link to a dog calculator and other links on dog genetics. Looking at the calculator, it looks like there might be both a recessive and a dominant blue, but I know nothing about dog genetics, so don't quote me on that.

 

[heebygeebies]

The first boy is an e^b based buff; the second is an E^Wh or E^Wh/e^b based buff. Wheaten lightens comb, wattles and skin, but also removes black pigment from the wings and tail. Brown (e^b, aka asiatic partridge) does not lighten the skin, comb or wattles, but allows black pigment in the wings and tail. Undercolour will also give a clue as to which base is present.

Select based upon the best type, and the girls' characteristics.

Thank you both very much for your comments ChickNMamma and Sonoran Silkies. I am very new to Silkies so I am trying to learn what to look for. I believe that rooster number 2 has better type, leg feathering but not a better comb. Also I like his colour more. Both of their crests are usually much poofier, not sure why but some of my birds have lost their lovely crests during this damp weather. Some of the hens heads look very wet, I'm thinking they are dipping it in the waterer so I may have to figure out another way to water them. Thanks again, it's great to be able to ask questions. I will take a close look at the roosters feet tonight but I know that rooster 2 definitely has better foot feathering.

Perhaps I will bother you all with more pictures later Your advice was much appreciated. I will also be on the lookout for nicer buff roosters for sale in my area.

 

[chicksnthestiks]

From Henk's website: http://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator, about a third of the way down it talks about dog genetics and lists a link to a dog calculator and other links on dog genetics. Looking at the calculator, it looks like there might be both a recessive and a dominant blue, but I know nothing about dog genetics, so don't quote me on that.

Yes there is, like the blue in say an American Staffordshire Terrier is different than the merle gene in Shelties. Sometimes I don't say everything I mean too! I did not want to say she was wrong, we are both right but I wanted to say the way the diluting works in the chickens (blue x blue=splash) is like how the merle gene in the Shelties works (blue x blue= double merle) and double merles bred to a black dog produce all blues.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: No necessarily, although it might be a browner black.
Ok, I am trying to wrap my head around the "incomplete dominant" Silver gene. Am I correct in believing that the mother only passes her copy on to her sons? Although in this case it doesn't appear to matter if the original Splash hen carries S/- or s+/- because we are dealing with adding recessive white from the father so it doesn't change the outcome of creating white by crossing back to the father, but for future reference and while I am trying to figure out what is happening in other possible breedings.

The information about the difference in the E^Wh vs e^r Buffs above was wonderful - that is the stuff I am trying to learn! Changing skin color will tell which base - and you said something about the underfluff? I saw something earlier - but I don't recall if it was described exactly what you are looking for in the coloring of the underfluff...

Oh, I just put a bunch of combinations through the chicken calculator and I could not create a black or blue bird with e^b/e^b - they kept coming out with some kind of patterns - even with melanisers (Ml or Cha) added. Is there one I missed? I did manage to get a sold blue bird with E^R though.. so maybe E^R/e^b for the Splash Hen?
Yes, silver/gold is sex-linked, and what mama has goes only to her sons. Her daughters inherit the shorter W chromosome, which does not contain the gene. So, the daughter's s-gene comes from her father. If he is silver, she will be. If he is gold, she will be. If he is golden, she could be either silver or gold. Incompletely dominant means that what is displayed is intermediate between the two alleles present. Golden looks more like silver than like gold, but it is not that pure silvery white; it has a sort of yellow or brassy tinge to the colouring.

If the father carries blue, he will pass it on to some of his offspring. Approximately half if he has one copy, to all of them if he has two copies. Since he is recessive white, when bred to another recessive white the blue gene will be passed, but not expressed. If he is bred to a bird that does not carry recessive white, the blue will express, but whether it will make a "blue" bird will depend on all the other genes present. Could be blue partridge, lemon blue or any other variety/mix that contains blue. And of course, blue can be so dark that it looks black and is not obvious in the phenotype.

Do you know how to make punett squares?

Wheaten underfluff is creamy; asiatic partridge undercolour is greyish. Brahmas are asiatic partridge; orpingtons are wheaten.

Not all colour genes are completely documented. There is an undocumented recessive black, which could be a single gene, or more likely a combination of genes that enhances eumelanin. There are also thought ot be other melanizers that are undocumented. The chicken calculator is a wonderful tool, but not nearly as complex as nature. We all keep waiting for someone to develop that handy-dandy pocket dna-synthesizer that Henk once jokingly referred to so that we can get complete genotypes of all our birds.

Ron Okimoto once stated that he thought the best exhibition black and blue silkies were probably E^R based.

 

[heebygeebies]

That is a good question - I wasn't aware that buff could have any black in their tails? Maybe its allowed in the roosters?

I like the stance and the comb/wattles better on the second boy - but the comb/wattle color is better on the first. How is their foot feathering? The top picture doesn't show a lot of feathering on the center toe - are there feathers there? Both boys have low wings - but that's what roosters do (1st one better on that).. Neither has great crests. I would check both for any drop/split wing issues.

I think if that was my choice I would use number 2 with a hen with a really dark comb, a big foofy crest and great foot feathering. Number one looks to have a lot of hard feathers in his tail too but number two looks to have a high tail?

I am new to silkies - so my observations are from what I have seen of comments on other people's chickens and my own. Hopefully somebody who breeds and shows Buffs will chime in and we can get more information.

The black in the tails is something that has to be selectively bred out. From what I have read, black in the wings is very bad but black in the tail is "normal" but of course you want them to be ALL buff.

I'm thinking I will stick with the second rooster because type is harder to breed. Selecting for proper comb should be easier than fixing type.

Thanks again for your help. I am also new to Silkies and trying to learn! I have seen so many pictures and descriptions of what a proper Silkie should be but it can be kind of hard for me to discern those qualities in my own birds. It helps so much to be able to ask other people for their advice.

Oh and the roosters had poofier crests when I got them, it's like the damp weather and rain has un-poofed them? Some of my hens heads look wet and less poofy, while others are fine. Kinda weird.

I will have to share some pics of my hens.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote: Yes, silver/gold is sex-linked, and what mama has goes only to her sons. Her daughters inherit the shorter W chromosome, which does not contain the gene. So, the daughter's s-gene comes from her father. If he is silver, she will be. If he is gold, she will be. If he is golden, she could be either silver or gold. Incompletely dominant means that what is displayed is intermediate between the two alleles present. Golden looks more like silver than like gold, but it is not that pure silvery white; it has a sort of yellow or brassy tinge to the colouring.

If the father carries blue, he will pass it on to some of his offspring. Approximately half if he has one copy, to all of them if he has two copies. Since he is recessive white, when bred to another recessive white the blue gene will be passed, but not expressed. If he is bred to a bird that does not carry recessive white, the blue will express, but whether it will make a "blue" bird will depend on all the other genes present. Could be blue partridge, lemon blue or any other variety/mix that contains blue. And of course, blue can be so dark that it looks black and is not obvious in the phenotype.

Do you know how to make punett squares?

Wheaten underfluff is creamy; asiatic partridge undercolour is greyish. Brahmas are asiatic partridge; orpingtons are wheaten.

Not all colour genes are completely documented. There is an undocumented recessive black, which could be a single gene, or more likely a combination of genes that enhances eumelanin. There are also thought ot be other melanizers that are undocumented. The chicken calculator is a wonderful tool, but not nearly as complex as nature. We all keep waiting for someone to develop that handy-dandy pocket dna-synthesizer that Henk once jokingly referred to so that we can get complete genotypes of all our birds.

Ron Okimoto once stated that he thought the best exhibition black and blue silkies were probably E^R based.
Ah, thank you E^R makes black on the chicken calculator with melanisers - the e^b did not. I figured there was probably more out there than the chicken calculator could handle - especially if the genes are not fully understood yet. Undocumented recessive black.. maybe something that could turn the e^b into solid blacks too... just not documented yet. There was talk of a supressor gene too - undocumented - to explain why some crossings did not come out as expected (something supressing a color that should have been there.

Yes, I did the Punett squares to figure percentages on the splash cross. Since the mother was Splash on the blue chicks - they all got Blue from her. We don't know if the father carries Blue - he is recessive white with who knows what else underneath. Crossed to the splash he appears to throw mostly blue with one partridge appearing chick. If she finds that one silvery chick to be splash then the father does carry blue. She did get the one Partridge striped chick - so either or both father and mother could have hetro melanisers (Cha or Ml or ?) or carry split E^R loci to something else?

No wonder Partridge is so hard to get right - there are so many combinations that look close...

Thanks on the confirmation about my understanding of Silver (even if I got S and s+ backwards). Mommy only passes what she has onto her sons - father passes what he has on to both sexes and he can carry both S and s+ which further confuses who gets what. The Golden color I have seen in a Silver Duckwing x Gold Duckwing (not my cross but somebody elses). It would probably be harder to see in Silkies.

Oooh, when they come up with the handy-dandy pocked DNA tool - put me on the list! It would make breeding for things SO much simpler!

Ok, I have to digest what I just learned... and try not to dyslexia it again! Capital lettered Genes are Dominant and appear with one gene, lower cased genes are recessive and only appear with two copies..

.. except in the case of silver because of Golden appearing in the roosters..

... I before e except after c, except in words like neighbor and weigh... aaaaaaaH

 

[ChickNmamma]

The black in the tails is something that has to be selectively bred out. From what I have read, black in the wings is very bad but black in the tail is "normal" but of course you want them to be ALL buff.

I'm thinking I will stick with the second rooster because type is harder to breed. Selecting for proper comb should be easier than fixing type.

Thanks again for your help. I am also new to Silkies and trying to learn! I have seen so many pictures and descriptions of what a proper Silkie should be but it can be kind of hard for me to discern those qualities in my own birds. It helps so much to be able to ask other people for their advice.

Oh and the roosters had poofier crests when I got them, it's like the damp weather and rain has un-poofed them? Some of my hens heads look wet and less poofy, while others are fine. Kinda weird.

I will have to share some pics of my hens.

Yes, I too have heard of "build the barn before you paint it" I like the second one's stance better.

According to the calculator their all buff bird is based on E^Wh with a dominant gene called "Dark Brown" which actually turns the tail buff with one copy. I guess that's how you breed out the black tail.. So your second boy has a better chance of getting rid of all the black. I couldn't get rid of all the black on the e^b based boy.

If it also lightens the comb I guess that's why "mulberry" is the proper color description of the comb - instead of "black".

Yes, damp weather un-poofs silkies. Mine also like to eat Fermented Feed on their heads and beards - and they have spikey hairdos after that - very funny. I have one silkie cross that I suspect dunks her head in the food so she can get it all matted up so she can see. Her feathers are normal feathers and her crest of normal feathers makes it hard for her to see.

It is always good to get others opinions of your birds. Like you said - its hard to see what others see sometimes.

Please share pictures - love pictures...

 

[peepblessed]

No problem. The best way to find out if they are blue partridge is to breed them together. If you get blue/black/splash - they are both blue. If you get only the dark color - they are regular partridge. Since my pair have some chicks that all came out same colors (no lighter and darker ones) I guess they are regular partridge. They sure look light to me though..
Here are the pictures from before I got them - they are in quarantine now and getting over a molt so they look really raggedy.


Jasper. See that lighter tail fluff and undercoat down by his feet?


Minky

The roo looks blue to me. Love the colors.

Figured I'd jump on this thread now since I'm starting over with Silkies and got my new cheeps today! (Thanks Peepblessed !!) I got 5 lavender 3-4wk old lavender silkie chicks from Geri Godina (Obsessively Silkie). I'm hoping I have at least 2 hens in this bunch and a roo in this bunch and plan on breeding the hens to my lavender split roo. I'm sure I'll be coming back here to to get info and ask lots of questions!

Here are some pics...

Geri has beautiful self-blue. Hope you enjoy your self-blue project as much as I'm enjoying mine.

Thanks! I will take lots of pictures Sunday.

Take lots of deep breaths!!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: Yes, silver/gold is sex-linked, and what mama has goes only to her sons. Her daughters inherit the shorter W chromosome, which does not contain the gene. So, the daughter's s-gene comes from her father. If he is silver, she will be. If he is gold, she will be. If he is golden, she could be either silver or gold. Incompletely dominant means that what is displayed is intermediate between the two alleles present. Golden looks more like silver than like gold, but it is not that pure silvery white; it has a sort of yellow or brassy tinge to the colouring.

If the father carries blue, he will pass it on to some of his offspring. Approximately half if he has one copy, to all of them if he has two copies. Since he is recessive white, when bred to another recessive white the blue gene will be passed, but not expressed. If he is bred to a bird that does not carry recessive white, the blue will express, but whether it will make a "blue" bird will depend on all the other genes present. Could be blue partridge, lemon blue or any other variety/mix that contains blue. And of course, blue can be so dark that it looks black and is not obvious in the phenotype.

Do you know how to make punett squares?

Wheaten underfluff is creamy; asiatic partridge undercolour is greyish. Brahmas are asiatic partridge; orpingtons are wheaten.

Not all colour genes are completely documented. There is an undocumented recessive black, which could be a single gene, or more likely a combination of genes that enhances eumelanin. There are also thought ot be other melanizers that are undocumented. The chicken calculator is a wonderful tool, but not nearly as complex as nature. We all keep waiting for someone to develop that handy-dandy pocket dna-synthesizer that Henk once jokingly referred to so that we can get complete genotypes of all our birds.

Ron Okimoto once stated that he thought the best exhibition black and blue silkies were probably E^R based.
Ah, thank you E^R makes black on the chicken calculator with melanisers - the e^b did not. I figured there was probably more out there than the chicken calculator could handle - especially if the genes are not fully understood yet. Undocumented recessive black.. maybe something that could turn the e^b into solid blacks too... just not documented yet. There was talk of a supressor gene too - undocumented - to explain why some crossings did not come out as expected (something supressing a color that should have been there.

Yes, I did the Punett squares to figure percentages on the splash cross. Since the mother was Splash on the blue chicks - they all got Blue from her. We don't know if the father carries Blue - he is recessive white with who knows what else underneath. Crossed to the splash he appears to throw mostly blue with one partridge appearing chick. If she finds that one silvery chick to be splash then the father does carry blue. She did get the one Partridge striped chick - so either or both father and mother could have hetro melanisers (Cha or Ml or ?) or carry split E^R loci to something else?

No wonder Partridge is so hard to get right - there are so many combinations that look close...

Thanks on the confirmation about my understanding of Silver (even if I got S and s+ backwards). Mommy only passes what she has onto her sons - father passes what he has on to both sexes and he can carry both S and s+ which further confuses who gets what. The Golden color I have seen in a Silver Duckwing x Gold Duckwing (not my cross but somebody elses). It would probably be harder to see in Silkies.

Oooh, when they come up with the handy-dandy pocked DNA tool - put me on the list! It would make breeding for things SO much simpler!

Ok, I have to digest what I just learned... and try not to dyslexia it again! Capital lettered Genes are Dominant and appear with one gene, lower cased genes are recessive and only appear with two copies..

.. except in the case of silver because of Golden appearing in the roosters..

... I before e except after c, except in words like neighbor and weigh... aaaaaaaH
I think you need to realize that incompletely dominant is not quite the same as dominant, and that sometimes even recessives show to a slight extent with a single copy (for example, mottling can show in juvenile feathers, and even in young adult plumage when only one copy is present). Genetics of Chickencolors and Basics is pretty helpful.

I like your spelling analogy

Partridge really isn't that difficult to get right...at least not once you have the right gene combinations in both parents. (Oh, and the colour and pattern of a male partridge (e^b base) is pretty much identical to that of a male gold duckwing (e+ base) or a male wheaten (E^Wh base). Females, however, look entirely different with these three bases.