Silver Appleyard versus Snowy?

[CityChicker]

The easiest way to tell the color on the Appleyard Call drakes is going to be to wait until they go into eclipse plumage. They look too similar to Snowies otherwise and most are not the correct genotype for Appleyard to begin with. The true Appleyard genotype is light phase restricted Mallard (m^r/m^r, li/li). Most Appleyard Calls that I have seen do not carry the restricted genes. My suspicion is that most are light phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li), but there are undoubtedly some that are harlequin phase wild type (m+/m+, li^h/li^h) or split to harlequin phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li^h). Anyway, most (if any) are not the true Appleyard color with the signs of restricted Mallard and the gene that creates the mask, which is probably a gene closely related to the restrictor gene (not all large fowl Appleyards even carry that gene). The Appleyard Calls though in general are *very* close to being the correct genotype and some may be the correct genotype entirely. The Miniature Appleyards are not even remotely the correct genotype for Appleyard, they are the Snowy/UK Silver genotype, but everyone already knows this.

This brings me to how to tell the difference between Snowy Calls and Silver Appleyard Calls, as I said, with the drakes it is going to be much easier in the eclipse plumage. The main difference between Snowy and Appleyard (including all the "pseudo-Appleyard" types I mentioned above) is going to be the addition of the dusky alleles (m^d/m^d). Snowies of correct genotype are pure for dusky and pure for harlequin phase. The dusky genes obscure the eye stripes and can give the hens a slightly hooded appearance. This is why Snowy hens and Appleyard hens look radically different. The Appleyard hens should have distinct eye stripes. Likewise, the drakes in eclipse plumage should also have distinct eye stripes. Anything other than that suggests dusky is involved. Ducklings that should be kept for breeding would be those that are yellow with distinct dark "mohawks" typical for Appleyards (good luck breeding any of them since most don't carry restricted Mallard, LOL) or those that have the wild-type Mallard pattern with excess yellow connecting the dorsal spots (like Mrs. Turbo posted) indicating they are light phase. Ducklings that are yellow with a dusting of smokey color over other parts of the body (google images of Silver Welsh Harlequin or Silver bantam ducklings) should be culled as pets and not used for breeding as that would strongly suggest the involvement of dusky (again, the ducklings that are harlequin phase wild-type, but not dusky-based, are also incorrect color but hard to weed out).

So, to paraphrase to make this simpler to understand-

1. Breed only from hens that have distinct eye-stripes.
2. Breed only from drakes that have distinct eye-stripes in eclipse plumage.
3. Breed from ducklings that are either yellow with a mohawk or look like Mallard ducklings with excess yellow.
4. Cull (as pets) any birds that have obscured eye-stripes or ducklings that resemble Snowies or WH.
5. Select for white facial markings in the drakes if you are lucky enough to have it pop up in your flock as it is related to the desired restricted Mallard. (Editing to add- This is only if your desire is to breed for the true and correct Silver Appleyard genotype. Not everyone has that goal and lots of lines of large fowl SA do not even have this).
6. Select for birds also that have excess white in the bend of the wing as this also indicates restricted Mallard (these will be the yellow mohawked ducklings).

I don't think any Call breeders have yet perfected the color to this point in the Silver Appleyards and type is obviously an issue as well. They are a work in progress, but there are some beautiful birds out there. They are definitely established enough that someone could take them on and improve them rapidly at this point. The earlier breeders have done a great job of doing the hard work of getting the variety started and I'm sure have other notes on what to look for that I have not mentioned. The Calls are certainly much farther along with this color than those of us breeding a true Mini are. With the Calls, there are other things to look for once the basic color/pattern is achieved, like the subtle differences between light phase and harlequin phase, but that is the least of the worries at this point in getting the color correct. HTH!

 

[CityChicker]

Mrs. Turbo :

the first 2 pictures... snowy drake....take a look at the back color on the snowy vs the silver appleyard....this is one way to tell

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/21841_087.jpg

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/21841_204.jpg

Silver appleyard call drake....notice the "silver" color on the back and they do get the white under the bill

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/21841_218.jpg

That is a very good observation and I'm sure spot on. I have noticed that being a key difference in my Greenhead Aussie Spots that appear to be light phase (so similar, if not identical genotype to most Appleyard Calls) and in the Silver Bantams (which are also the Snowy genotype). The harlequin phase dusky genotype results in even more white and additional white lacing in the claret, whereas the light phase birds have a further extended claret with less lacing. It is a very subtle difference though. The backs of the light phase birds do indeed have the color you show in the Appleyard Calls. I suspect that with the Calls, breeding out the dusky is rather easy and has mostly already been done. Breeding out the harlequin phase (that *must* exist in some birds, considering the Snowy heritage), is going to be more difficult, as is selecting for restricted Mallard.​

 

[CityChicker]

Mrs. Turbo :

Quote:
Really! Wow, that is interesting. I thought for sure that Brice had posted that on one of the duck groups. I will have to go back and try to find it. That doesn't surprise me though at all. There are a lot of breeds and colors in the duck world that people have not disclosed the origins of or been entirely forthcoming about the history of.

Editing to add: Okay, I found the message I was thinking of (was easier than I thought it would be, LOL). What is funny is that it is actually a response Brice made to Jerry (Mr. Turbo?)... I started to post it here and fill in the blanks with some of what I know from breeding the other bantam ducks, but I don't want to totally go off topic for Bacres' thread. Let me know if you want me to post it in a different thread. It might be interesting information.

got it.....sorry to bring up an old post. Butters were made with a snowy and pastel, but the snowy must have carried the appleyard pattern somewhere. Straight from Brice.​

Yeah, that confirms the information I had posted that I had seen from him (posted in my post from 3-15). I have also since seen that same information in the Sheraw Call book. The original Snowy must not have been pure for harlequin phase and/or dusky (maybe from Spot or Aleutian heritage). It just depends on what generation the color popped up in (which I don't think has ever been fully divulged). There are several ways the colors could have occurred by the second generation from Snowy to Pastel. As the colors currently stand, it seems obvious that the Butterscotch are likely the Saxony genotype (wild-type plus Bl/Bl, li/li) and the Appleyards are the light phase aka Trout genotype (wild type plus li/li). The Blue Butters would then be (wild type plue Bl/bl, li/li).

These colors all pop up in Aussie Spots as well since the correct color for them is light phase split harlequin phase. This should result in 25% pure for light phase (as the Calls above) when two birds of correct genotype get paired together. These birds when they do hatch end looking pretty much identical to Appleyard and Butterscotch Calls (and therefore Saxony and Appleyard large fowl). Anyway, it is obvious that the light phase alone can make the birds look almost identical to the truest Appleyard genotype. Identical to the point you can't tell with out opening and examining the wing coloration.

BTW- Huge congrats on your recent wins! I am thrilled for you! That is wonderful.

 

[bacres]

How do I tell what my Calls Genotype is. I know it is hard to tell by looking at them. What is the correct Genotype for Snowys and what is the most common Genotype.

 

[CityChicker]

LOL, basically the short answer, bacres, is to select for the opposite of what I said above for Silver Appleyard. LOL.

The correct genotype for Snowy is harlequin phase dusky, which is m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h. It seems like we discuss this so often here, but only one author states a different genotype for Snowy and that is Holderread, who in past versions of his book has said the color is wild-type based or m+. It isn't. It's dusky based. I really hope this information is changed in the next version of the book. The most common genotype for Snowy would be the correct genotype mentioned above, harlequin phase dusky. There have been a few recently that people have posted that appear to be heterozygous wild-type birds, but those are literally one in a million. Almost every Snowy bird I see is the correct genotype.

As ducklings, they should be yellow with a slight dusting of darker color. If you google images for Silver Bantam (Mini Appleyard) ducklings or Welsh Harlequin ducklings, I know there are some good photos online of the duckling down color (thinking specifically on the Holderread site). Of course, you can also look for Snowy Call or Snowy Mallard duckling pictures as well since all these breeds are the same genotype.

The most significant and easily recognizable key detail in the adult birds is that the presence of the dusky genes causes the eye-stripes to be obscured. The drakes in eclipse plumage will not have eye-stripes nor will the hens at any time. The hen's head also generally show signs of hooding, which can range from fairly dark to so light it is almost not visible, but it is there. If this and the duckling down color is correct, you almost certainly have the correct genotype. The other thing is that with the claret coloration, the difference between light phase and harlequin phase is generally that the harlequin phase (as should be present in the Snowies) has more of a laced appearance in white, rather than just an extended claret. This distinction though can be very minor.

Really though, I have not seen hardly any Snowy Calls that are floating around with the wrong color genotype, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The biggest worry is making sure they are dusky based, which is very easy to do if you pay attention to the eye-stripes. There are not a lot of people breeding some of the colors that could more easily get mixed up in a Snowy line (like Spot, Aleutian, and to some extent Silver Appleyard especially the drakes), so I would not worry too much about it.

 

[swheat]

Thank you Mrs. Turbo and CityChicker for all the information you have provide for us newbies wanting to learn. It is very much appreciated.

I will be printing out all this great information and keeping it an easily accessible reference !

 

[duckluck]

Quote:
I am hoping to do some work with the Appleyard Calls; I bought these two Appleyard pullets from Mrs. Turbo in the hope of doing that, as I have a drake here and a few other Appleyard Call pullets, and I have access to another for next spring with really good type. Some good info to be had here to go with my good material! Mrs. Turbo's pullets were National Champion and Reserve National Champion for that variety so we're preparing ourselves with the right stuff! Quality specimens in this variety are very hard to come by and I was pleased to get two of them.