sizzle, frizzle, and frazzle???

[Glenda Heywoodo]

when breeding any color frizzle do this
using your color frizzle for white in explanation

WHEN BREEDING WHITE FRIZZLE COCHINS
The main thin is to only have pure bred white cochins and pure bred white frizzle cochins to breed with.
Then to pick each year ONLY THE BEST BREEDERS. I did not keep CULL BIRDS, BUT DISPOSED OF ALL CULLS FROM DAY ONE OF HATCHIG
.
(1) AS TO BREEDERS: Only selected birds that the feather quality was good and, white.
NO DISCOLORED FEATHERS OF ANY KIND, those were culled as soon as I could see their feathers growing out as chicks.
OR CULLED FOR ANY OTHER DEFECT AS CHICKS.

(2) Now as to picking adults,
(A) the birds have to have broad backs.
(B) the bird have to have the correct beak, face, leg, feet coloring fo white cochins.
(3) now to apply the ABA standard for this correct correctness.

IE: ABA is American Bantam Association standard which in color now.
(A) Put name in the brower and AB facebook site will come up:
(B) You can join and also buy a new Standard for Bantams and Bantam Ducks

Now for Breeding WHITE COCHIN FRIZZLES:
well having bred frizzle cochins for several decades:
I would not breed frizzle to frizzle.

The "smooths" that come from a regular feathered ,
are the ones used in the f-1 mating.
#1@ Are Of father to daughter.
#2@matings are mother to son.

(A)I always used the smooth females to my frizzle roosters.
(B)I showed both the female frizzles and male frizzles.

(C) The smooths are very important to the mating of frizzles.

(D) when using the frizzle to frizzle you get the extreme frizzles,
and will eventually breed the feathers off the birds.
(E) the feather folicles will not be in the skin.
(F) the chick will have curliest tight feathers and by the third molt not have many feathers at all.
(G)these extreme frizzles make for birds that can't stand the cold or the heat and have to be culled.

(H) the fact that if one breeds the frizzles long enough to each other,
you breed the feather follicles OFF,
iee holes in the skin for the frizzle feather to come out FF

(I)I know I tried it before I learned how to breed good frizzles.

(J) Frizzles have a modifying Gene which allows their feathers to curl forward.

(K) I had a pullet that had not more than 20 feathers on her whole body so she was a waster. I figured out quick??

(L) That is WHY Do I take the time to feed and house birds.
I was going to kill 1/4 of them in the end?

(M) So I went to using only smooths out of
frizzles and regular frizzles.
(N) that way I got 1/2 frizzles of good quality and 1/2 smooths to breed with.

(O) I personally liked my frizzle males for breeding to the smooth females.
As the smooth females had better type than the smooth males.

(P) I never liked a long legged cochin male.

(Q) And I showed my female frizzles as well as the frizzle males.

(R) Never had the brittle feathers that people speak of. Just had them lose the places(folicle holes) for feathers to grow into the body with.

(S) But frizzles get a tight curled narrow wet looking feather if you breed frizzle to frizzle too long.

(T) Here is a friend of mine from Australia that explains the modifying gene in frizzles.

KazJaps from Australia
here is a Frizzle modifying gene (mf) that alters the ___expression of Frizzling (F). This might explain Glendas results.
Put these genes together in different combinations & youll get various expressions of frizzling (or no frizzling).
A bird may appear not to be frizzled, but may actually have the frizzle modifying gene masking ___expression (heterozygous for frizzling & homozygous for frizzle modifier
Ff+ mfmf). So the phenotype (how a bird looks) is non-frizzled, but genetically they have the frizzle gene.
Glenda puts it nicely, Smooth Frizzle. The bird actually has one dose of the frizzle gene. Therefore offspring of 2 seemingly normal-feathered birds may produce a Frizzle (by the modifying gene becoming heterozygous or the frizzle gene becoming homozygous).
So, there are 5 main phenotypes (how a bird looks)
1: normal feathering (f+f+ Mf+Mf+ or f+f+ mfmf)
2: smooths, as Glenda calls them (Ff+ mfmf)
3: exhibition frizzles (Ff+ Mf+Mf+)
4: frizzled, less woolly than extreme (FF mfmf)
5: extreme frizzling (FF Mf+Mf+)
f+ = non-frizzled gene (wild type)
F = frizzle gene (incomplete dominant)
mf = modifying frizzle gene (recessive)
Mf+ = non-modifying frizzle gene (wild type)
FF = homozygous frizzle (2 doses of the frizzle gene)
Ff+ = heterozygous frizzle (1 dose of the frizzle gene)
mfmf = homozygous modifying frizzle (2 doses of the modifying frizzle gene)
* The modifying gene needs two copies (homozygous) for ___expression, plus the frizzle gene.
The frizzle gene needs at least one copy for ___expression, plus not homozygous for modifying genes (if heterozygous for frizzling Ff+).
So, as Glenda explained, if you breed two smoothies together (Ff+ mfmf X Ff+ mfmf), there is still the possibility of getting frizzled birds (FF mfmf), about 25%.
Also breeding a smoothie (Ff+ mfmf) with a normal feathered bird (wild type f+f+ Mf+Mf+) will produce frizzle (Ff+ Mf+mf), & so on.
The frizzle modifying gene apparently is quite common in non-frizzled birds.
Well, thats the theory anyway.
This thread is a perfect example why I like to listen to people who have bred birds for decades. It is not very common for poultry geneticists to have identified a modifying gene such as this.

Glenda L Heywood Cassville Missouri
29-1/2 years Editor- Publisher of
NATIONAL POULTRY NEWS
OVER 60 YEARS RAISING
CHICKENS and ducks

 

[Glenda Heywoodo]

Makeing Silkie Frizzles
Glenda Heywood

Silkies of good frizzle feathering do show a lot of curled forward feathers
one has to breed them several yrs to get the correct silkie facts
walnut comb
tourqoise ear lobes
black skin
5 toes
and feathers curling forward
the silkie feathers do not have the same stiff quills such as
cochin frizzles that most silkies are bred to to get the frizzle genetics.
I have seen some that are much more frizzled than the pictures.

SILKIE FRIZZLES
Trying to produce Silkie Frizzles is a task and will take a lot of years to perfect the frizzle and the
silkie genes to make good silkie frizzles.
Yet now days there are several dozen breeders who have Silkie frizzle stock to buy.
This makes the task easier and quicker.

When breeding Silkies to a frizzle most people use the Cochin frizzle to get the frizzle genes in the
offspring.

Your first hatch will produce red combed silkies with either the red walnut comb (should be
mulberry walnut comb) and some straight red combed crosses.

The fact that the silkies have a crest has to play a part in here also.Along with blue ear lobes, and 5 toes.

You are crossing the silkie feathering (which has the lack of usual forms of webs, that is,
there is a lack
of adhesion of the barbs to one another which gives the appearance of down or silky hair, hence the name silken or Silkie) and the regular Cochin feathers so you will have to deal with getting the feather
frizzled and back to the silkie type of feathers.

Genetically, the frizzle gene is strong after being introduced to the silkie. So that your first off spring will have 1/2 gene for silkie and 1/2 genes for frizzle.

(1-A) In the 2nd generation, The 1/2 genes for frizzling should hold up to get another generation
of offspring with the silkie/ frizzle cross back on the silkie.

(1-B) Here in 2nd generation breeding you can also make a breeding of the best silkie/frizzle
cross in the male & females hatched that has the best mulberry walnut combs and this will produce more of the frizzling genes in 2nd hatching. Also using the silkie rooster and the frizzle/silkie cross females that have the best walnut combs,this give another linein the offspring, so here are two lines to breed from.

(1-C) Because the original frizzle was cochin I would not breed it back on the silkie crosses as this makes the walnut mulberry colored comb almost impossible get what is needed. (1-D)The blue ear lobes and the 5 toes have to count in here also, along with the crest.

(1-E) your original frizzle bird needs a strong back ground of frizzling as this will help in the genetic
makeup of the bird for frizzling. By using the frizzle/silkie crosses to each other this strenghens the frizzling gene. It also should bring back the walnut comb. You have to get the red comb out
and the mulbery comb back in.

(2-A) now in the 3rd year you should have some good frizzle/silkie crosses to breed to each other and back on the last years silkie/frizzle crosses. So good book keeping is importnt to this breeding.Also good toe punching is necessary.

(2-B) Each year keep tract of how many comes out with the red combs and mulberry combs and discard the red combs.

(2-C) You will need to watch for the foot feathering and the blue ear lobes, and the 5 toes, and the crest.

(3-A) by the 4th generation you can breed the silkie back in on the most frizzled females and with the best walnut combs and blue ear lobes and the 5th toes, will strengthen the crest also.

(3-B) The frizzling should be established so that you can breed a frizzled hen ( 1/2 frizzle & 1/2 silkie looking birds hatched) back on to a good silkie rooster and now have more of the genes for the walnut combs.This is a one time mating also.

(3-C) I would not use a bird that has any cochin in it for this breeding, or any after the first breeding. Because you need only the full blooded silkie-frizzle genes to throw the needed genes with the frizzling coming out in the offspring from the frizzled mother. By now breeding the frizzle to frizzle that have the silkie qualities should have strengthened the amount of frizzling good.
(3-D) still have your other matings of frizzle/silkie to the good frizzle/silkie.

(3-E) and the other way around the silkie/frizzle cross rooster to a silkie hen, can be a one time mating.

(3-F) here if there are some good smooths( offspring that comes out smooth feathered but is 1/2 silkie/1/2 frizzle genes) use these hens if they have the walnut mulberry combs, & blue ear lobes and 5 toes,good crests, breed to one of the good frizzle silkie males.

(4-A) In order to breed this type of cross it take a lot of pens and a lot of years to get the desired
crosses with all the silkie traits.

The frizzling is just the extra your trying for. Because of the strong
genetic traits you are striving for the Mulberry Walnut Comb, the tourquoise blue ear lobes and 5 toes.

also you have to deal with the crest and the bearded and non bearded.

So each year you pick the offspring to breed, take all this into consideration.

It will take some time to establish a line that has the good crests also. I would imagine when bringing the silkie back into the breeding every so many years you bring a good bird with good crest also.

It was always my experience that when crossing any bird in on the silkie it deminished the large crest, brought red combs, and a lack of 5 toes and the lack of blue ear lobes.

(4-B)Mainly because your are using a red single comb, red ear lobes and 4 toed, non created bird for the frizzle gene. These traits have to be bred out of the frizzled silkie offspring.

(4-C) your objctive is to breed a good silkie type on a frizzled feathered bird. So here is where the hurt
comes. There has to be culling done very severely, I would not sell these birds to others just to recap
some feed money,

(4-D) MAYBE THE HENS FOR SETTING HENS, but tell the people buying that they are culls for showing
purposes. A couple dollars for the hens each is about what they will bring. Pheasant people need setting
hens and these are good ones for that.

(4-E) Here is some advise never sell any red combed Silkies to breeders for breeding purebred birds from.

New people believe what they see and hear and don't know the difference till they are at a show and get disqualified for not knowing the difference.

(4-F) BUY A AMERICAN BANTAM ASSOCIATION STANDARD OR AMERICAN POULTRY ASSOCIATION STANDARD and read both the description and disqualifications in silkies for making the
SILKIE FRIZZLE BANTAM.
Glenda L Heywood Cassville Missouri

 

[Dianne88]

I'm not trying to breed, I just have a question about a chick I was just given. The breeder said she thought she only had Cochin frizzles and silkie sizzles so she wasn't sure what breed my chick was. I know it's not a silkie, possibly a Cochin mix??? Peachy non feather legs and a straight comb. I keep teasing saying it's a seagull (I live in Fl). Any guess on what breed this one might be??

 

[Glenda Heywoodo]

I'm not trying to breed, I just have a question about a chick I was just given. The breeder said she thought she only had Cochin frizzles and silkie sizzles so she wasn't sure what breed my chick was. I know it's not a silkie, possibly a Cochin mix??? Peachy non feather legs and a straight comb. I keep teasing saying it's a seagull (I live in Fl). Any guess on what breed this one might be??

Well having bred pure bred Cochins and pure bred frizzle Cochins for decades.
I must tell you cross breeding takes in a lot of territory in offspring results.

take a look at your photos and NOTE THIS, ONE OF THE CHICKS HAS A TOP KNOT.
So that chick will be a sizzle as you call it, I call it a SILKIE FRIZZLE.

Also the top chick looks like it has a partial crest and is a curly so it was made from two sissles, as they are the frizzled chickens.
It will begin to lose its feathers in the 2nd molt I suspect.

It has narrow stringy looking feathers of which when breeding two frizzles together thus makes "curlie" or extreme frizzles.
As for the feathering it looks like the first chick in the 2nd picture is not going to have many frizzle feathers.

Thus to be what we frizzle breeders call "SMOOTHS".
Smooths are very important to breeding frizzles. As you want a smooth to breed to the frizzle each and every yr.

As "Curlies" are culls in its infancy. They do not take hot weather or cold weather and tend to lose feathers.
If bred for more than 2 generations "curlie" will lose the feather follicles and have no feathers at all.

So you have a 50-50 chance of having a frizzle silkie type and a smooth type. Hopefully they will be a male and female.
They lady probably ran more than one type female on males and so each chick did not get the same genenetic make up.

I feel She gave it away AS SHE NOTED THE TIGHT STRINGY FEATHERS AND KNEW IT WAS A "CURLIE".

Glenda Heywood Cassville Missouri

 

[Glenda Heywoodo]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/59929/sex-my-frizzle

FUN MONITOR POSTED
Tee-hee! The post subject makes me laugh.
I'm hoping and hoping and praying that my frizzle isn't a boy. We'll keep him anyway, but it's easier to keep one rooster rather than two, and we have a cute Polish cockerel. How can I choose between the two? Anyway, here are pictures of "her"...
.
GLENDA HEYWOOD SAID
well folks this is my advice you have what is called EXTREME FRIZZLE or a "curly".
The bird comes from a curly extreme frizzle and frizzle mating. Too manyyears done so.

Meaning this this genetic sample comes from too many years breeding frizzle to frizzel.
you need to do this put the bird out of its life as it will not stand the heat from sun or the cold of winter. The bird can't survive the ordeal of life.
It is no good as a breeder either.

Also because so much of its skin is showing causes it to be the low bird on the pecking pole. Birds will pick the skin till it bleeds and cause problems with cannibalisum
I am glad this photo came along.

AS IT IS AN EXTREME FRIZZLE AND WILL NOT BE ANY GOOD FOR BREEDING.
TO STRINGY OF FEATHERS
ANY WAY I WOULD NOT EVEB KEEP IT TO WASTE FEED ON. SORRY BUT WITH ,
PRICE OF CHICKEN FEED IT IS NOT WORTH IT IN A PURE BRED POULTRY FLOCK.

That is why I never bred frizzle to frizzle JUST A WASTE OF TIME, ELECTRICITY TO HATCHING, AND FEED, AND SPACE.
Sorry just experience talking and sympathy for the bird and its owner.


sex my frizzle
Tee-hee! The post subject makes me laugh.I'm hoping and hoping and praying that my frizzle isn't...
backyardchickens.com

 

[MrsChicky55]

Does anyone have any pictures of what a smooth silkie would look like as a chick?

I'm trying to figure out what a bird like this would look like as a baby chick (not my chicken, just a googled image). Also, how old would the chicks be when you can figure out the difference between the silkies, sizzles, smooth silkies, and frizzled silkies (frilkies?). Thanks!

 

[WVduckchick]

Frizzle and silkie feathers are usually evident within the first week or so.
Silkies *should* have 5 toes, black skin, walnut comb. Cochin yellow skin, straight comb, 4 toes. Any mixture of those on the same chick is likely a mix. Like 4 toes, black skin, and a straight comb is not pure either way.

 

[MrsChicky55]

With the smooth silkies do they just not have the silkie fluff or reversed curve to the feather? Do the feathers just look like a normal bird?

 

[WVduckchick]

Posted this on a Serama thread and only response was possibly dry feathers. I don't think that's it, so I'm cross-posting for other opinions/thoughts. Wondering if it's maybe something similar to the frizzle gene? Thanks

Anybody ever seen a Serama with feathers like this? Or any breed, for that matter? Could she be a silkie gene carrier? I have hatched her eggs, and haven't noticed it on any offspring yet. She is on eggs, due any day now.

 

[chickiegrl06]

So i have 2 smooth silkie hens and 2 sizzle hen. My rooster is a sizzle as well. I went to the coop the other day and had surprise chicks. I figured they quit laying due to the weather but they hid some. My question is of you can tell if the chicks will have the brittle poor feathering at just a few days? I feel like a bad chicken mom for not looking harder for eggs. thanks for any advice.