So how do you get a Birchen? Do they crop up in blue/black/splash breeding programs?

[nicalandia]

You mean the father?

The father of those cockerels(the ones you posted showing leakage) is probably only heterozygous for the Melanotic gene(Ml/ml+) and their dame/mother is too, I have never seen a project that focused on breeding towards undermelanized Extended black, most likely because the birchen allele does that, but undermelazined Extended black would give a darker Birchen look

 

[BlackHackle]

That is leakage, the male is possibly missing Melanotic Ml, which turn hackle, saddle completely black, you know it's leakage when their shoulders are covered in black but hackel and saddle are gold/golden,silver

That is a very good point. It does appear to be lacking Melanotic MI. That explains the lack of saddle coloring

 

[WVduckchick]

The father of those cockerels(the ones you posted showing leakage) is probably only heterozygous for the Melanotic gene(Ml/ml+) and their dame/mother is too, I have never seen a project that focused on breeding towards undermelanized Extended black, most likely because the birchen allele does that, but undermelazined Extended black would give a darker Birchen look

I was thinking those came from my blue mottled cock, and he came from a very good breeder, so I was scratching my head.. the mottling wouldn't come into play?
I'll have to check my records, I could have the wrong cock in mind.

Thank you for the info

 

[BreanneRN]

Looking for LF silver, found some bantams on ebay, guess I could breed up, but there is a pretty big size difference between a bantam and LF cochin. I have cats around and like to have bigger chickens so they will not be a temptation to my squad of rodent controller cats (who I also love and care for). I am not planning to free range the Cochin chickens though, they will have a house and run. I just like variety in colors, always been fond of the black and white contrasting patterns.

Birchen is simply the opposite of columbian. I can't find a relation to BBS and birchen.

Here is a birchen
View attachment 1416281

 

[BreanneRN]

Well, I guess what I need is a really good book on poultry color genetics, then I will understand more about this and can use those chicken color predictor tools. Of course that still doesn't tell you what colors are hiding in those chickens you have out there. The fact is there are many recessive color genes in most animals that only presents when coupled with another that just happens to carry that recessive also. Most of the varied colors and patterns we have today cropped up in someones breeding program and were then used to standardize that color variety. Inbreeding of chickens and other animals will cause those recessives to present. They don't come from nowhere, but may have happened long ago, and been passed along but never presented because the next generation only got one gene for that and needed 2 to present. I think possibly hatchery lines may carry a lot of recessives because they are too cheap to purchase from established lines and just use what they have (outcrossing to other breeds) to get the latest fad color/variety. These recessives can be passed on and then crop out in another color. Only way I will ever know what is there is to breed them, then inbreed them. But there are other traits that are recessives as well and those genetic anomalies (which may be deleterious) will present as well. Crossed beaks, angel wings, other weird things that you don't want. Anyway, I guess I can wait for Birchen to come along and maybe buy a pair. There is just a huge size difference between bantams and large fowl cochin chickens, but maybe a mature bantam rooster with a 6 month LF hen might get me there. But I'm not in that big a hurry really. Just curious. I like to learn...

 

[gojira]

Well, I guess what I need is a really good book on poultry color genetics, then I will understand more about this and can use those chicken color predictor tools. Of course that still doesn't tell you what colors are hiding in those chickens you have out there. The fact is there are many recessive color genes in most animals that only presents when coupled with another that just happens to carry that recessive also. Most of the varied colors and patterns we have today cropped up in someones breeding program and were then used to standardize that color variety. Inbreeding of chickens and other animals will cause those recessives to present. They don't come from nowhere, but may have happened long ago, and been passed along but never presented because the next generation only got one gene for that and needed 2 to present. I think possibly hatchery lines may carry a lot of recessives because they are too cheap to purchase from established lines and just use what they have (outcrossing to other breeds) to get the latest fad color/variety. These recessives can be passed on and then crop out in another color. Only way I will ever know what is there is to breed them, then inbreed them. But there are other traits that are recessives as well and those genetic anomalies (which may be deleterious) will present as well. Crossed beaks, angel wings, other weird things that you don't want. Anyway, I guess I can wait for Birchen to come along and maybe buy a pair. There is just a huge size difference between bantams and large fowl cochin chickens, but maybe a mature bantam rooster with a 6 month LF hen might get me there. But I'm not in that big a hurry really. Just curious. I like to learn...

The best book on poultry color genetics of Genetics of the Fowl by F.B. Hutt. Some things have changed, but it gets you in the ballpark. The chicken calculator is not that great unless you put in the values, and even then it is not very accurate. The color varieties started from mutations, but we'e added to other breeds by breeders with knowledge of how those genes worked. It sounds like you have really gotten turned around.

 

[BreanneRN]

Not too certain what you mean by "turned around"... But if you say so. Thanks to all for replying, I appreciate all the help and advice.

 

[gojira]

Not too certain what you mean by "turned around"... But if you say so. Thanks to all for replying, I appreciate all the help and advice.

By turned around, you were making statements that suggested you did not understand genetics and breeding. Not all mutations are recessive. Not all recessive traits are bad. Not all dominant traits are positive. Birchen is a dominant trait, but you seemed to lump it in as recessive. Maybe you get the idea.

 

[BreanneRN]

It was not my intention to make any absolute statements or infer that all mutations are recessive (or bad or good). I was only referring to the ones that are recessive, as these are the ones that will turn up unexpectedly because they are hidden and require 2 to present. Dominant genes don't hide, they always present if they are there. Incomplete dominance also happens and there are additionally many color modifiers. I only sought to explain why it is possible for other colors to present that may not be expected. As I stated, I have no familiarity with what colors are recessive or dominant in birds (which is why I need a book). I will take your word for it that Birchen is single gene dominant. Thanks for the information, I do appreciate it, and thanks for the book recommendation, also, I will check it out.

 

[gojira]

It was not my intention to make any absolute statements or infer that all mutations are recessive (or bad or good). I was only referring to the ones that are recessive, as these are the ones that will turn up unexpectedly because they are hidden and require 2 to present. Dominant genes don't hide, they always present if they are there. Incomplete dominance also happens and there are additionally many color modifiers. I only sought to explain why it is possible for other colors to present that may not be expected. As I stated, I have no familiarity with what colors are recessive or dominant in birds (which is why I need a book). I will take your word for it that Birchen is single gene dominant. Thanks for the information, I do appreciate it, and thanks for the book recommendation, also, I will check it out.

You are still confused. If a recessive trait is being expressed, it is repressing a dominant trait. Dominant mutations turn up unexpectedly also. Recessive traits do not show up unexpectedly unless one does not know their birds. Even when i do a cross, i know what will happen. I am not sure what single gene dominant is, so I think you misunderstood me.