Some horse training questions ( Pictures added - pg. 2)

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Ah ha. That is probably a big Clue. Has his turnout changed? If he used to be 'out' more than he is now, try just kicking him out and leaving him there, he may simply need more moving-around time to stay happy and supple. Is he eating any different grain, in particular, has he perhaps been switched to something with molasses? Was he perhaps longed or roundpenned before you tried him? (In fact, irrespective of the answer, have you tried longeing or roundpenning before you ride to see if it helps?) Did his starting to shake his head coincide with your farrier starting to work on him? Try having a really good-seated, TACTFUL trainer get on him - does the behavior diminish a lot or go away?

If the answer to all of the above is 'no', then I would be at least Very Highly Suspicious that it is a pain/discomfort thing and he may have had a bit of pharmaceutical help when you tried him, e.g. a coupla grams of bute on the sly.

Does he have a dip or hollow on either side of the withers? (Since you mention high bony withers). Generally, in a horse of good bodyweight, that is a sign either of body pain somewhere (horse is compensating by using himself incorrectly and those muscles get wasted) or of being ridden in an incorrect fashion so that he is holding himiself with the 'wrong' muscles and not developing the right ones (which can cause pain, headshaking, things like that).

As for a chiropractor, I'm not even sure where I would begin looking for one. Unfortunately my dad does not believe in things like that, and it would be difficult getting him to spend the money (Which would be upwards of around $200 - $300 for just one visit, and that's just from my experience with horse massage therapists!)

I do understand about not being able to talk the checkbook holder into it, and sometimes that's just the way life goes. OTOH it is worth at least asking around - there is a good chance you can get someone a lot cheaper than the prices you quote. There can be very large differences in rates that do not necessarily correlate well with the practitioner's ability

Ask your trainer, horseowning friends, vet if he;s the kind of vet you can ask about chiropractors, people at tack shops, etc.

So I guess my question is, is this head shaking something that ONLY occurs from an ill fitting saddle? Could it just be him acting up? He is very head strong sometimes, and always wants to be in charge. Is there any way to train him to stop the head shaking if this is the case?

Quite honestly, my best bet from your description is that it may be partly habit but is most likely at least partly a real, ongoing discomfort issue from some source. "Very headstrong sometimes" can easily be a further reflection of discomfort. If not, then it is the basic training issue here and honestly I'd probably drop back to very very simple simple groundwork (again, I would really recommend the Bill Dorrance book rather than any popular 'system') rather than trying to work it out in the saddle where there are too many variables going on. Until you two work out what each other means and how to get along in a partnership kind of way, you're unlikely to really FIX anything, although problems can be band-aid-ed and swapped around ad infinitum.

Good luck, he sounds like a fun horse even with this problem,

Pat​

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Thanks pat! That is some really good advice.

Our horses are usually always outside, unless there is bad weather or they just need a break from being outside. Basically they are out 24/7 though, with a run out shed. He's not a big fan of going inside, but he has gotten better.

Before we bought him, he had never actually had sweet feed. We spoke to the vet and asked what should be done. Since we do not have grass available for them 24/7 and our other horse is used to the sweet feed, we started gradually introducing it to him. He was pretty skinny when we bought him, and I assume that was due to a hay only diet. I know they can live on grass only, but they must have not been giving him enough to live sufficiently on! He did pick up weight right away, but the head shaking started. Maybe this is part of the issue?

I would be afraid to take him off it, as we have been having trouble keeping weight on the horses this year. The vet said Stetson's weight is fine, but I still think he is skinny as I can see a little bit of his ribs on both sides. The other horse is very old and VERY skinny. I think this problem is due to a batch of hay we got that was really dry. I guess they just weren't eating it. My dad did recently buy a new batch and spent a little extra to get the really nice green grass hay, so hopefully that remedies the issue. Is there an alternative to sweet feed that would keep weight on and give them the nutrition they need?

Unfortunately stetson does not lounge and that is something I would love to work with him to do. My dad is going to be investing in a roundpen soon, so we will be able to work on some trust issues and other training techniques. I am really excited about that. When we were looking at him, it did not seem like he had been exercised prior and though I can't say for sure, I don't think he was drugged. His personality is the same (though much better now than when we bought him). I mean, it is not like he's bucking or doing anything terribly dangerous, but I'm afraid it could escalate.

As for the withers, I will have to post a picture to show you. I guess I could say he does have depressions on both sides, but he has been like that ever since we bought him. It did get better when he put on weight, but the withers are still very high and bony, and it does sound like you mentioned. I'm thinking most all of his problems stem from before we bought him (He used to pull back on the lead every time he was tied, wouldn't load on trailers, would shoot out of them when backing up, hated his face touched, etc.) In the two years we have had him, we've overcome all of these issues. He is a very nice horse now, just a little bit unpredictable.

They used to keep him saddled for twelve hours a day, and ride him for most of those. That would be hard on any horse's back! I'm thinking maybe it's not so much a current saddle/riding issue as it is a past one. However, the sweet feed could very well be playing a part in it too!

Thank you for all your help! I will post a picture of him when we got him, now without a saddle, and one with my new saddle on his back. I just have to get them off my computer.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
It seems worth investigating. All you'd have to do is switch him over to a non molasses containing feed -- such as fat-and-fiber type pellets -- for, like, one feed sack's worth, and see what happens. Up here it is only marginally more expensive, certainly very doable for an 'experiment'. I know that there is a bit of Scientific Research that has found no difference in horses' behavior with molasses vs without, but (and this is speaking as a former research scientist, here) just because they didn't see an overall effect on a mixture of horses' behavior does NOT mean it doesn't affect some INDIVIDUAL horses. (I happen to own one. He just goes bonkers-sillly with any molasses -- and no, it is NOT a caloric issue). You never know.

When we were looking at him, it did not seem like he had been exercised prior and though I can't say for sure, I don't think he was drugged.

Oh, I wasn't really suggesting he was drugged (like, sedated) -- what I meant was that if he had a touch of discomfort somewhere, causing the behavior you describe, a coupla grams of bute might've concealed it. Bute is just a mild antiinflammatory/pain-reliever -- there is NO POSSIBLE way that you could know whether a horse was buted, short of having a blood sample pulled to send to the lab.

Actually, I will say that given the horse's history, some people, if they had bute around, might try something like 3 g a day for several days and see if that made any difference in the horse's behavior. Of course, only a vet should be recommending you use medication and I am not a vet so I am not recommending it, but a lot of people (including me, if I'd exhausted all other avenues) might try it as a diagnostic measure. I am sure I will catch flack for saying that, but, you know, VETS do this too

Thank you for all your help! I will post a picture of him when we got him, now without a saddle, and one with my new saddle on his back.

Sure, that might help, and in any case now I'm curious to see the subject of all this discussion <vbg>

Good luck,

Pat​

 

[Wynette]

Hi there! I read your thread with interest. I've had some strange issues with my horses in the past, and John Lyons' Perfect Horse magazine really gave me some good ideas.

Have you tried cinching him up in a DIFFERENT spot than he's used to? Also, you can try cinching on the opposite side as well. As previous posts indicated, make it a pleasurable experience for him.

I had a mare that got a little keyed up before we would begin riding, and just as I got on. I started doing yoga-type stretching while sitting in the saddle, and massaging her on her neck & rear while I was sitting up there, to relax her (and me!) a bit before we began moving. This helped TREMENDOUSLY.

Also, you don't need a round pen to lounge! You can do it anywhere in a small circle. I have found it's easier to begin with a small circle and move to a larger one. I actually even won an NSBA yearling lounge-line class training without a round pen, so it can be done equally as effectively. GOOD LUCK - it sounds like you are committed to making it work with your boy - keep up the good work, try not to get frustrated!

 

[bluerose]

I would not use high fat/high fiber pellets... the NSC content in these is ridiculous... try hay pellets or soaked *unmollassed* beet pulp shreds- or, another option is a ration balancer like Purina's Enrich 32 (used to be called Born To Win) or Buckeye's Gro N Win... you feed about 1lb per day and it provides all the nutrients they need. You can feed the ration balancer and then add something like Natural Glo (stabilized rice bran) for extra calories. If he is currently being fed grass hay, you could add a small amount of alfalfa for weight and also, if he has stomach issues, the calcium in alfalfa will help soothe- however I would not feed more than half of the horse's forage in alfalfa (upsets vitamin balance).

His being a harder keeper (just noticed) really makes me think you may have an ulcer problem on your hands... get him off the sweet feed. No horse should eat it- it is hell on their digestive system!... When a horse has ulcers or stomach irritation, girthing forces acid on to the ulcers/irritation... causing a lot of pain. Exercising- cantering especially- also 'churns' acid onto the ulcerated stomach lining. Headshaking (especially angry headshaking as I am suspecting this is, not the syndrome) can be an expression of that pain.

Pads with padded withers are a load of BS.. the saddle doesn't rest on the withers... (or at least it shouldn't!)

I read a few websites and this seems like it's a pretty good fit. I have to be careful how I place it (so it is not too far back or forward) but I can fit two or so fingers under the pommel when I am mounted, and the tree is not digging into him. Seems like saddle fitting is such a tough aspect. Most websites make it sound like no saddle ever fits properly. I did read one website that cleared things up a little bit and said a good saddle is one that is not cheap, fits your horse, and can be used on other horses, not necessarily something that fits your horse PERFECTLY.

Saddle-fitting takes training... not reading a website. The saddle must, at the very least, be balanced back to front as well as side to side; not go past certain vertebra on the back; not impede on the shoulders; have even panel contact; and no saddle ever fits 'perfectly' (ESPECIALLY western saddles), because the horse's back is constantly in motion while the saddle is being used, yet the saddle is fitted while it is still!

I have a huge beef with western saddles, if you can't tell... they are very problematic IMHO as you can't adjust them at all (as you can with a quality english saddle) and they are very rigid... Wintec is NOT known for its quality western saddles. English saddles they do a fairly good job with (as long as you have knowledge of fitting them, because the panels are not adjustable), but not western. The only western saddles I have had any luck with are Bob Marshalls- and they are treeless... my horses love them (even one who sounds quite a bit like your guy- high withers and whatnot).


What breed (sorry if I missed you mentioning it)? Certain breeds are more prone to issues than others. Age would be helpful as well. Was he vetted before purchase? Did the vet find anything in particular?

You could try riding in a very gentle snaffle (double-jointed, smooth, not too thick, not too thin) to see if perhaps he is poll-sore if you are currently riding him in a curb... that could cause headshaking, for sure. If the curb is ported it could also be bothering him- horses with low palates do not do well in ported curbs.

Bodywork may not be as expensive as you think.. here in So. Cal (where everything is inflated) it is $100 for the initial chiro session and $50 thereafter, and $60-70 for massage (although I suspect that is just our masseuse). Acupuncture is about $160 when you include the vet call.

I would be inclined to know more about his feet. Pain in the feet can cause pain everywhere else and make a horse truly miserable.

Also- if you are considering trying bute therapy for a few days to see if pain is his issue- be *very* *very* careful with his stomach... bute is essentially an ulcer catalyst, and if the horse has an already ulcerated or irritated stomach, it is a bad, bad idea. Something else to consider (that you could keep him on as a daily supplement for pain relief) is B-L Solution or Pellets. Takes longer to work, but much easier on the body.

Good luck

 

[texasreb]

I agree with bluerose's advice regarding the feed, except that I hate Purina products! Buckeye's Grow and Win is great. Also see if you can get Triple Crown's TC30. It's an RB too.

Get rid of the sweet feeds and grain! Horses don't need it and really don't do that well with a lot of NSC's (non-structured carbs) in their diet. It can lead to diabetes and a whole host of other problems.

Both of your horses sound like they seriously need a ration balancer. Since they are both on the thin side you could/should also be adding beet pulp (w/o molasses), rice bran, BOSS (not my first choice) along with soaked alfalfa cubes.

If your horse is truly from Mexico, he probably has a very narrow back, American saddles--even expensive ones--will not fit him period. Generic backyard Mexican horses are generally bred for ranch work, rodeo, racing, and tripping. They usually have a lot of Arab in him, plus mustang and what ever else. Again, they are narrow.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Thanks everyone for all the advice!

Let me see if I can answer some of the questions that were asked:

He seems to be all or mostly quarter horse. This is what I originally thought, and both our vet and farrier back me up on this. It's difficult to know for sure, but we were told by the people we bought him from that very few actually have mustang in them. That's interesting about the arab though. I really don't think he has any arab in him, as he is pretty stocky and does not have the typical arab face. Who knows though.

As for his feet, that's one of my favorite parts about him! We do have an excellent farrier and even he has commented several times on how nice his feet are. He has never been lame since we have had him and we do keep shoes on him, as many of the trails we ride are rough and rocky. His feet are nice and large, but have no deformities or cracks, and the farrier does an excellent time trimming every time he comes.

As for age, we believe he is around 7 or 8. He was about 6 when we bought him. We were told he was a little older (we were told he was about 7 or 8 when we bought him two years ago, so not that much of a difference), but the vet and dentist looked at his teeth and both agreed he is 7 or 8 now. He does have a lot of maturing to do.

I'm almost straying away from the idea that he is having back pain caused by the saddle. I talked to my dad tonight, and he also said that he shakes his head no matter what we ride him in. He even gave me a hard time when I rode him bareback for a few minutes. Perhaps he may have issues stemming from a bad saddle fit years ago, but I really think it is something else. I definitely want to investigate the sweet feed aspect of it, but again, my dad is real set on the idea that he is only being disrespectful. We actually did have a mexican saddle we rode him in for a little bit before we sold it. I hated the way it fit him, but he was not better. Same with the billy cook, circle Y, wintec, generic backyard saddle, etc.

The ulcer is an interesting point. How could we tell if this may be an issue? Is that something only a vet can determine? That is also something worth investigating.

My other horse used to shake her head too every once in awhile, and she would just do it to give me a hard time (She had her days!). A lot of times she did it in resistance to something I asked her to do. Stetson does do it when he doesn't understand what it is we are asking. For awhile we did not know the cue to get him to back up and he would get SOOO frustrated! Finally we worked with him and he understands what we want him to do. THe head shaking subsided for the most part. This problem could be as simple as he is not getting enough riding time.

Anyways, I'm going to try and post some pictures:

Here is a picture from two years ago after we brought him home. Boy was he ugly! (Terrible picture too)

Here are some very recent pictures:

And here are a few with his saddle on. In some of the pictures it looks like the back end is lifted up, but I think it's just the way he is standing. It does not look like that when I am sitting in the saddle!

And a few with me:

I hope you like the pictures! He is a pretty boy! You can also see the white stress mark he has on his one shoulder. That was from before we bought him.

 

[bluerose]

Saddle is too wide. Sorry... see how low it sits in front? Not balanced at all. It only doesn't pop up in back when you are sitting on it because your weight forces it down... doesn't fix the fit.

From what little I can see of his feet, I am not impressed, BUT they are bad pics for foot viewing. (Note: feet are my own personal thing to nit-pick- I trim and research like mad as a hobby, carry on thorough discussions about theory with my trimmer, etc...

but the adage 'no hoof, no horse' is more true than one may think.)

Once the back is sore- unless a different saddle puts pressure in non-sore places (unlikely)- he is going to have the same reaction until he is not sore... and by then it could be a learned behavior. Bareback, unless well-padded (bareback pad with good pad underneath it would work), would also likely put pressure on the sore spots, and you have the same reaction.

Can we perhaps get confo pics from the side without the saddle on, and maybe close-ups of his back and shoulders?

Remember... it is never the horse's fault. Until ABSOLUTELY PROVEN otherwise- ALWAYS assume a physical issue.

One of my favorite quotes, that is very, very true: "Keep an open ear to the horse’s needs and an open heart towards his physical and mental limitations."

Just because you can push him through the pain doesn't mean you should.

 

[verthandi]

Quote:
Totally agree with you on the fit of this saddle. Too wide and it is placing the rigging off. I have yet to see a saddle that has the cinch ring almost directly under the pommel fit a horse correctly even if it the right width. Pondering on the keyboard, if a Cashel soft saddle might help address this horse's issue of back discomfort?

I bought one this winter, and have found that I love this saddle for old and young horse alike. Odd looking thing but it sure is comfortable for both horse and rider and stays in place very well.


Edited to add...I forgot the most important thing

he's a handsome bugger.

 

[texasreb]

I agree, that saddle doesn't fit him properly. Look at the first picture with you in it. The gullet (the inverted "U" shape that goes over the withers) is nearly touching his spine. Once you get on, that will be resting right on his spine---OUCH! The fact that the horse is wearing a cut-back pad tells me that you or someone has tried to correct this issue to no avail.

The saddle and pad are not positioned correctly on the horse. Both are too far back and the pad is wedged apart further than it should be where the cut-back is. The cushioned part is too low on his shoulders and therefore not able to function as it should.

Didn't you also say in an earlier post that he is cinchy? You could try using a better quality cinch (I personally don't care for rope cinches, esp nylon ones which is what your appears to be from the photos). Try one of the more modern cinches---I like both the neoprene ones and the lambs wool ones. Also, it might feel better when it is properly positioned on him. It is too far back as well as everything else.

Also, his spine seems to be prominent, a sign that he is still underweight and/or under-condition.

I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, because I'm not. I'm trying to help you by pointing out potential problems.

He is a handsome boy and looks to have a kind eye. I think if you fix his saddle woes you'll have a different horse. Good luck and keep us posted!