Some horse training questions ( Pictures added - pg. 2)

[bluerose]

You can sort of see proper saddle placement here (the front saddle bag doesn't cover very much):

The girth is in the correct place... it needs to be well away from his elbows... but the rigging (where the girth attaches to the saddle) is just too far forward- should be more under the fender than in front of it.

My guy (pictured) is also high-withered, though very short-backed. On your horse the saddle should *under no circumstance* come that far back on his spine- for one his back is long enough and for two my guess is you'll be using a treed saddle. Saddle pictured is a Bob Marshall Treeless- there is no rigid tree to push on his spine and create pressure. He does very well in it and is quite comfortable; they are relatively inexpensive for a western saddle although rather more than a Wintec (anything of decent quality will be, I'm afraid to tell you, unless you pick up a major steal or a very used saddle). They pop up on eBay from time to time although you have to know what you want because they tend to go pretty fast.

For your horse, I would start with a Skito Equalizer foam pad: he has enough back atrophy that he needs the help. From there, fit a saddle. If you go treeless, a Skito is basically required; if you don't, it's not a bad idea at all. They don't come cheap but are worth the expense, and last quite a long time with proper care. They are also great for using under bareback pads.

I would also keep hunting on the stomach issue, because while fixing the saddle will help tremendously, the fact that he's 7 or 8 and a hard keeper, along with the issues he has, really makes me think that he may have some irritation. The sweet feed, if nothing else, can do that. Pulling him off of the sweet feed and adding in free-choice, good quality pasture or grass hay with a feeding of alfalfa each day could tell you whether he has any stomach issues just by itself... diet is a big factor.

 

[Florida chick]

A lot of corrrect things have already been covered. You def need a different saddle. He has a prominant boney wither and needs a proper fitting saddle and maybe gel pads. His hooves need a different farrier. They are angled horribly. His confirmationhas many flaws which will not help you find a saddle easily. Don't give up, I think many of your issues stem from him being sore. If you can find and exp trainer or a saddle fitter to help you work thru this it should help. You def want to get a neo girth with fleece or something more comfortable for him. goodluck and enjoy your cute boy!
attached are some of our horses with what I feel is proper saddle placement even with a rider in them. Also a pic of my Percheron's hooves, she has bad hooves due to her size and they are still in better shape than your boys.

THIS PIC IS MY SON ON A 34 YR OLD RESCUE THAT IS VERY SWAYBACKED, BUT THE SADDLE STILL FITS!

 

[helmstead]

I have to agree - that saddle is terrible, and the cut back pad is making it worse. Not only is the gullet of the pomel touching his withers (big, huge no no) but the front of the skirt under the gullet is pinching him HARD just below that. Its so far back that once you're aboard, your weight shoves it into the muscling behind the scapula and hinders his freedom of movement and causes pain. I abhor cheap saddles - ALL of them do this. Honestly, he's such a good boy - any of my horses would have bucked me off from this saddle's fit.

In your first photo from a couple years ago - he has a hunter's bump (see how his spine is roached just before it runs into his hindquarters?). I can't tell if this has gotten any better - but if you add that to his humpy hindquarters (you see this ALL the time in TBs) it equals a sore-backed horse who despirately needs a chiro adjustment.

He doesn't so much lack weight as he lacks muscle tone, very much over his topline. My pet peeve - people who don't condition their horses. You need to be working him at least 2x/wk on lunge or in a round pen with some kind of equipment that will help him round up and strengthen that topline (there are several methods available - the easiest is two long cotton leadlines run from the bottom dee of the halter, under the chest, behind the elbow and tied over top of the withers short enough to get his head below his withers). Lunge him on hills, too. A horse can't be expected to be athletic right out of the pasture, esp one who doesn't self-maintain his topline. Building those muscles will bulk him up behind the withers and also help a GOOD saddle sit where it should.

Good luck.

OH and FLORIDA CHICK! I know I've seen that pic before. I LOVE YOUR BAY PERCHIE! I just sold my grey French mare in January and so regret it...lovely horses. I've always had lights until I bought my Perchie 5 years ago...just an awesome horse. Next time I head south to visit my 'rents I might have to make a day trip ;-)

 

[Florida chick]

Thanks Kate. Your more than welcome to visit. I love my big mare! She is doing great and learning lots of Dressage at the moment. She came as a rescue and is now bombproof. I agree 100% with you on conditioning... Poor Mag needs a diet her entire life! I have to limit pasturetime she is such and easy keep.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Thank you everyone for the advice. I will take into consideration what has been said.

We do loosen the saddles of horses when they are sitting, so the pad had slid down and the saddle slid back. That may not fix the saddle fitting poorly, but it does explain the position of the saddle!

When I am sitting up there, the saddle does not touch his withers or his spine, even when it is up further. I did check that over and over again!

As for the feet, we get them done only every 6 weeks or so, and so they do grow out! The front tends to grow out much more quickly than the back. I think he did leave them a little long this time, but he is a very good farrier otherwise. For $150 per horse he better be! He's been shoeing horses for over thirty years. I believe he is coming within the next week (Most of those pictures were taken during the week)

As for round penning or lounging, he does not do either, and I would have to work with him on this. We do not currently have a round pen, so for now, that is out of the question. Any tips on how to get him started with lounging would be wonderful. He does not even walk around you in a circle, but just follows you when you move to his side. I've read about putting him up next to a fence and teaching him that way. That method seems a little confusing though.

Oh yeah, the cinch is actually cotton. I don't necessarily like it, but he hates the black rubber girths as well as the ones with wool underneath. We have all types and have tried all three. This one seemed to be the only one he didn't swing his head around as much during cinching. So if that is what he likes, then I will stick with this one. The only thing I don't like about it is that the buckle is not protected by anything and touches his skin. He doesn't seem to bothered by that though.

He does get irritated if you just touch him there. And as for the bareback thing (forget who said it) but that was exactly how I rode him. I have a bare back pad and I usually just add some extra padding to it. I don't like feeling as if I am digging into the horse's back. Haha, I'm not completely stupid! I've been riding for 12 years now. I've just never had a horse that needed so much training or was so difficult a keeper.

Thanks for all the advice though. I realize no one is picking on me! I like to hear the suggestions. I really do want to fix the problem. Unfortunately I may be stuck between a rock and a hard place if it is indeed the saddle. I will try to get better pictures with the saddle tightened and placed correctly after his hooves have been done.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I also want to add that he only does the head shaking in the arena, and only at the lope. After we have worked him for a bit, it stops and he is fine. On the trails, there is no head shaking, even at the gallop. The only time I see it is right after mounting, but again, that only occurs maybe 50% of the time.

I also remembered that I did have a barrel saddle which fit him absolutely horribly. When we went to look at him, I brought it with me the second time we rode. The people we bought him from did say that it was not a good fit for him, but they put it on with a saddle pad and I rode for a short time - walk, jog, lope. No problems at all, even though the saddle was visibly ill-fitting. I never used the saddle on him after they told us that, but wouldn't he have given an issue then if the saddle was causing pain?

What really gets me is the fact that we rode him in the exact same saddle the farm rode him in for most of the two years we've had him. It was a billy cook saddle. However, he still gave the exact same issues. I just don't understand why he would do that if it was a well fitting saddle. (The people we bought him from really knew their stuff!)

Ah well, I'm just trying to rule out as much as I can.

 

[patandchickens]

Oh my, I am afraid that saddle is SO far from even approximately fitting him that honestly if he was mine and for some reason I could not obtain a better-fitting saddle, I truly believe that the horse should be sold, or at least not ridden at all

I am very sorry to have to say that, but it is true

Having the back of the saddle lift off the horse's back when he moves around unridden is ABSOLUTE PROOF, right there, that the saddle does not fit. It nearly always means that the tree is too wide. (Rarely, it can relate to the front-to-back curve of the tree).

I do understand that things can roonch around a bit when the horse is standing tied, grazing, etc... especially when the fit is not perfect to begin with... but there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that saddle could ever be repositioned to fit him.

Even if there is room between the pommel and top of the withers when you're on, it's only because the sides of the saddlepad are going to be mashing into the tops of his shoulders, which can cause serious discomfort and misdevelopment of muscles. (Notice that in addition to being rather undeveloped in the long muscles of the back that are what should be carrying the rider's weight, the upper muscles of the neck are also seriously underdeveloped, with big bulgey 'wrong' muscles along the underneath half of the neck, especially the portion nearer the shoulder. That demonstrates that you've got a problem goin' on...)

Given the way he seems to be shaped, from waht I can see of the untacked photos, I would not be surprised if the saddle is resting on his spine (or pinching it) somewhere in the middle of the saddle, i.e. under your seat. You should be able to thread a crop (or a switch made from a young branch the with of your little finger, with the leaves stripped off) all the way through the gullet from pommel to cantle without meeting any friction along the way...

The saddle is considerably too far back, and cannot possibly be placed correctly the way it is rigged (if the saddle were in the right place, you'd have to amputate his front legs to make room for the girth to lie there

). I'm sorry, and I understand it's a new saddle, but you HAVE to do something about it if you want to ride him. It's not fair to him otherwise. Honestly I'm a little surprised he's soldiering on as well as he is.

FWIW, I have never, in 30+ yrs of working closely with horses, seen anything to suggest to me that a horse is tossing his head out of 'disrespect'. They do it from DISCOMFORT or TENSION, period -- be it physical or mental. I know it's tough if you can't convince your dad, but truly, this looks like a nice little horse that is doing a really good job for you under considerably adverse circumstances, and I think it's really important to be as fair and kind to him as possible, even if it is financially inconvenient to try to figure out how to (at least) get a more appropriate saddle.

Good luck to both of you,

Pat

 

[bluerose]

Hearing more makes me think he's girthy from stomach irritation as much as from saddle issues. If you are completely thinking this is bunk- which it sort of feels like- well, I don't know what to say. IIRC, something like 80-90% of horses are suspected to have ulcers (I can dig up the study, but it's been quoted up and down in many publications- not an unknown study at all) and when you throw sweet feed into the mix I expect the percentage is higher.

Regarding riding in your saddle when you tried him (not regarding the different diet):
Oftentimes, if they're not backsore already, the first ride or two in a bad saddle they will tolerate- it's when you are pressing harder on the sore spots that they get ticked off.

Is he currently backsore (have you checked)?

'Rock and a hard place with the saddle'- sorry... I have zero respect for people who do the one-size-fits-all thing with saddles IF they do it because they just don't care. You are HURTING your horse every time he breathes or takes a step with that saddle on- sometimes PERMANENTLY- don't know if you realize how permanent muscle damage can be. This guy may need one saddle now and with proper muscling, he may fit into a different one after a while. He's thin and incredibly under-muscled- at this point, handwalking or ponying would be the most beneficial; I don't even know if he has enough muscle to be able to lunge without injury.

Helmstead's method of lunging (with the ropes encouraging to drop his head) works OK- but I would make sure it doesn't drop his head too low- he can't support that with his muscling currently (it takes a LOT of muscle to be able to) and he'll be flung on his forehand. You still want to make sure his head is level with the rest of his body- poll no lower than his withers. Also I would be very careful not to lunge for more than 10-15 minutes and mostly walking until he can sustain more work while still moving properly and not getting overly sore.

Were you riding him in THE EXACT (IE, you purchased the saddle from them) saddle the other farm had? Just because it's the same brand doesn't mean much. If it was the same brand, tree width, style, etc- then I suspect diet/lifestyle (and feet) even further.

 

[patandchickens]

The thing is, it is not necessarily just 1 factor. I would pretty much bet money that it is a number of things, some of which have been mentioned. Since he IS shaking his head relatively frequently (like, on many rides) there is demonstrably a problem with him, right? So the sensible thing to do (which in fact IS what you are doing

) is to try to identify the most likely factors and try to fix them as best possible. There are CLEARLY saddle fit issues (and his feet do look rather funky to me too, insofar as I can see them in the photos). So it would make sense, and be most fair to the horse, to take care of that and see where you stand after a few months. You know?

If your dad is not open to pursuing saddlefit or bodywork type issues, then I would say that the necessary alternative would be to invest in some riding lessons with a REALLY GOOD trainer who will be able to see what the horse's problem is and help you adjust whatever needs to be adjusted to fix it. (By really good, I do not mean 'wins at shows', I mean someone with a good eye for horses' problems and a reasonable skill for teaching). Perhaps this could be sold to your father along the lines of the alleged 'respect' issue?

Good luck,

Pat

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Is he currently backsore (have you checked)?

I don't really have too much time to reply right now, but these were the two things that stuck out to me. I HAVE worked with an equine massage therapist before for my other horse (We won several free sessions with a lady who lives down the street). She did teach us how to check for back soreness and I have checked Stetson several times. In fact, I usually do it after I ride. He has never shown any signs (Ears pinned, moving away from pain, back dipping, etc) to show he has any soreness, especially along the spine. In fact, I checked just the other day after riding for about an hour on the trails and again nothing. So if he does have pain issues, he does not show it when I touch him to check.

'Rock and a hard place with the saddle'- sorry... I have zero respect for people who do the one-size-fits-all thing with saddles IF they do it because they just don't care.

You have to remember that this horse was a rescue. It is essentially my dad's horse and had MANY MANY issues (including several described by you above) when we bought him. I attend college for most of the year, and during that time, it is my dad who exercises him. He was MUCH worse when we bought him and has since then filled out an incredible amount, compared to the scraggly thing we bought him as. Believe me, we care. If we didn't we would not have even looked at him in the first place. If we had not bought him, he would've been sold back to some ranch just to work his butt off as he did since he was 2 or 3. I really don't care that people give me advice. In fact, I really appreciate it! But when someone suggests we do not care for our animals, that upsets me. I just want to re-iterate the conditions he came from, as he was essentially neglected and abused by the ranchers. He has scars in his mouth and over his body and I have no doubt these people have beat the crud out of him throughout his entire life. (the ranchers, not the previous owners. They are basically brokers who buy these horses from Texas)

And quickly I will add that he is a dream on the trails. It is only arena work he seems to have a hard time with. Another interesting fact is that he gets better as we work him in the arena (we do not do hard work. A little walking, jogging, and an occasional lope) I am NOT ruling out back pain. It is just that certain things do not correlate with what I have been reading or hearing.

Selling him is not an option. The horse market is absolutely terrible here (as I'm sure it is in most areas). Eventually I will be getting a new horse (Hopefully this summer) and this horse will become my dad's. He is very good with my dad.

We have only had him two years, and it takes time to heal such a broken horse. He barely even trusted us enough to walk him around or tie him when we first got him. We are trying to do this bit by bit. I wouldn't be asking for advice if I didn't care, but it upsets me the judgments some will make. Please keep the advice coming if you have it. My dad took him on the trail this afternoon, so I will have to ask him how he did. I have no idea what saddle he is using.​