My Platinum boy today.
Sumatra Thread!
- Thread starter Chickenrandomness
- Start date
I just noticed I havent posted on this thread yet and Tim has. We have had sumatra in largefowl and bantam for the better part of 10 years now. We sold the largefowl flock this summer but still have a dun pair. At the moment we have alot of bantam sumatras, a total of 5 blue hens, 8 black hens, 2 black roosters, a hand full of black chicks that were accidents thanks to the broodies in the barn, and an old pair which doesnt count since they arent breeding anymore.
Almost all of our bantams are from Myron Berger with the exception of a few hens we got from other sources. The main cock we will be breeding from this coming year has a nice long back, good tail, and 4 spurs per leg in addition to the bright yellow bottoms and good face/comb. He will be the foundation sire of the 'mini largefowl' project. I dont like the look of the bantam sumatras these days, they tend to be too cobby and fat with bulging eyes, just dont look right. We have been able to get a few good hens to put with this rooster that all look just like largefowl (long legs, sleek heads, great tails, nice slick body) but are bantam size. The other hens will be put with the rooster too to try to improve the type more.
The dun pair we have are more ideal type largefowl sumatras. Way back when we first started with largefowl sumatras we had the Schock & Berger lines that were amazing. Over time we added in some blues that I think traced back to McKinney & Govero. From there the line started to go down hill some. Whatever they crossed in to get the blue color threw the type all off. It made them look too loose feathered. We got a blue cock bird with tons and tons of spurs and a nice long tail but he brought in 'wrinkled' tail feathers. When we bred him into the flock the wild look went away for a couple generations, it just made them look too domestic, its hard to describe. We got a dun hen last spring from a friend who had it show up in some of his projects, we love the chocolate color (goats, rabbits, wyandottes, etc) so had to have it in sumatra. We bred her to a good black rooster and got a hand full of chicks but not much survival with them. When the largefowl flock got sold we kept the dun hen and stuck all the largefowl eggs under some broodies. The only one that hatched was a dun chick and it turned out to be a cockerel which is great, we can still get blacks from them and might use him to make some dun bantams by putting him on some tiny black hens.
One thing I dont like about sumatras is the way they are heading. I see so many sumatras that judges are placing at the best of show level and just shake my head in disgust. They are huge bulky birds. In my mind I think sumatras should look more wild and gamey like they did even 10 years ago. The birds that judges are placing and as a result people are breeding towards are big bulky monsters that have loose feathering, poor yellow bottoms, small eyes, square heads, short thick legs, and weigh double what they are supposed to. I dont know if its due to people starting with hatchery birds or going with the whole 'bigger is better' or 'its what the judges are placing so it must be good' kind of thing but I will keep breeding the birds to the standard and to what I think looks right, hopefully this phase will pass like the bunny tailed wyandottes a few years back did.
I will try to upload some pics before too long
Almost all of our bantams are from Myron Berger with the exception of a few hens we got from other sources. The main cock we will be breeding from this coming year has a nice long back, good tail, and 4 spurs per leg in addition to the bright yellow bottoms and good face/comb. He will be the foundation sire of the 'mini largefowl' project. I dont like the look of the bantam sumatras these days, they tend to be too cobby and fat with bulging eyes, just dont look right. We have been able to get a few good hens to put with this rooster that all look just like largefowl (long legs, sleek heads, great tails, nice slick body) but are bantam size. The other hens will be put with the rooster too to try to improve the type more.
The dun pair we have are more ideal type largefowl sumatras. Way back when we first started with largefowl sumatras we had the Schock & Berger lines that were amazing. Over time we added in some blues that I think traced back to McKinney & Govero. From there the line started to go down hill some. Whatever they crossed in to get the blue color threw the type all off. It made them look too loose feathered. We got a blue cock bird with tons and tons of spurs and a nice long tail but he brought in 'wrinkled' tail feathers. When we bred him into the flock the wild look went away for a couple generations, it just made them look too domestic, its hard to describe. We got a dun hen last spring from a friend who had it show up in some of his projects, we love the chocolate color (goats, rabbits, wyandottes, etc) so had to have it in sumatra. We bred her to a good black rooster and got a hand full of chicks but not much survival with them. When the largefowl flock got sold we kept the dun hen and stuck all the largefowl eggs under some broodies. The only one that hatched was a dun chick and it turned out to be a cockerel which is great, we can still get blacks from them and might use him to make some dun bantams by putting him on some tiny black hens.
One thing I dont like about sumatras is the way they are heading. I see so many sumatras that judges are placing at the best of show level and just shake my head in disgust. They are huge bulky birds. In my mind I think sumatras should look more wild and gamey like they did even 10 years ago. The birds that judges are placing and as a result people are breeding towards are big bulky monsters that have loose feathering, poor yellow bottoms, small eyes, square heads, short thick legs, and weigh double what they are supposed to. I dont know if its due to people starting with hatchery birds or going with the whole 'bigger is better' or 'its what the judges are placing so it must be good' kind of thing but I will keep breeding the birds to the standard and to what I think looks right, hopefully this phase will pass like the bunny tailed wyandottes a few years back did.
I will try to upload some pics before too long
Could I get eggs from your Dun birds to add to my Platinum/Dun project?
It sounds like you really know what you're doing with your birds, I would love to see pictures of your stock and hear more on what you have to say about the breed. I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can about Sumatra.
It sounds like you really know what you're doing with your birds, I would love to see pictures of your stock and hear more on what you have to say about the breed. I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can about Sumatra.
We plan to seperate out birds for breeding early next year around February or so. I will keep you in mind for eggs. The dun hen we started with is the great great grand daughter of our first amazing rooster Diablo, he was feisty but gorgeous. Her son acts just like Diablo so his nick name is Coco-Diablo, he was hatched around August 1st. The hen is 1/16th pit game and the rest is all sumatra from our lines and some other lines and the dun cockerels father was one of the blacks from the blue line, the father had the gamey look like I love but had weight behind him and a slightly bigger comb like the blues.
I try to learn as I go with any breed. Some of the birds are in a nasty fall molt right now but I'll snag some pics of the hens over the week.
I try to learn as I go with any breed. Some of the birds are in a nasty fall molt right now but I'll snag some pics of the hens over the week.
gallo4319
Songster
- Jun 2, 2010
- 750
- 87
- 185
My three spurs Sumatra bantam this year his tail will grow longer,I already got some blue and black chicks from him and my blue hens
I bought him as a chick.
The rooster in the next picture is his dad
I bought him as a chick.
The rooster in the next picture is his dad
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Have to agree with all that was said about where sumatras are going now a days FMP.
Think the short leg thing is the worst, guess it makes the tail look longer or something and gets peoples eyes on them, but yes they are supposed to be long legged and slim built wild game looking birds. Being so few are properly kept in the country, I also feel your guess of too many starting with hatchery birds is a big part of the problem too.
Then like you said we have all these judges not judging based off standards any more but rather what looks good in their eyes which in my opinion should get THEM DQ ed from judging sanctioned shows.
But Like you said then, monkey see monkey do. Which to me is wrong for both the breed and new comers who are supposed to look for guidance from these people.
Have to agree with all that was said about where sumatras are going now a days FMP.
Think the short leg thing is the worst, guess it makes the tail look longer or something and gets peoples eyes on them, but yes they are supposed to be long legged and slim built wild game looking birds. Being so few are properly kept in the country, I also feel your guess of too many starting with hatchery birds is a big part of the problem too.
Then like you said we have all these judges not judging based off standards any more but rather what looks good in their eyes which in my opinion should get THEM DQ ed from judging sanctioned shows.
But Like you said then, monkey see monkey do. Which to me is wrong for both the breed and new comers who are supposed to look for guidance from these people.
As I was staring at the birds today in the rain I thought of some things Id post here that I havent really seen before when it comes to breeding.
A tip on tails. Females generally control tail length and such so use females with long tail/saddles and also the right angle. When it comes to males, dont cull for tail angle too early unless its way too high. The males that show with the best tails always have a tail angle of about 5-10 degrees. If they come from good lines, the tail will fill in and weigh the main tail down to just the right horizontal look. If you keep young cockerels with horizontal tails, they will droop below the horizontal line when they fill in.
I cant remember the last time we had a male with double spurs, they all have triple spurs or more. Also keep an eye on the bottoms of the feet- its been ages since Ive seen a sumatra with broken yellow on the bottom, all of our breeder birds have nice bright solid yellow bottoms.
For breeding blues we have gotten the best lacing when we breed black x blue, seems like when a splash is bred to a black or even blue x blue the lacing just isnt as good. We have some hens that have a nice metalic black lacing.
There is more and as I think of it, I'll post it
A tip on tails. Females generally control tail length and such so use females with long tail/saddles and also the right angle. When it comes to males, dont cull for tail angle too early unless its way too high. The males that show with the best tails always have a tail angle of about 5-10 degrees. If they come from good lines, the tail will fill in and weigh the main tail down to just the right horizontal look. If you keep young cockerels with horizontal tails, they will droop below the horizontal line when they fill in.
I cant remember the last time we had a male with double spurs, they all have triple spurs or more. Also keep an eye on the bottoms of the feet- its been ages since Ive seen a sumatra with broken yellow on the bottom, all of our breeder birds have nice bright solid yellow bottoms.
For breeding blues we have gotten the best lacing when we breed black x blue, seems like when a splash is bred to a black or even blue x blue the lacing just isnt as good. We have some hens that have a nice metalic black lacing.
There is more and as I think of it, I'll post it
This thread is making me think I should find some good quality stock to breed, at the moment, I'm only breeding from hatchery stock....
agreed on the breeding tips
this is what our blues look like when bred to black
These were just 6-7 months old when these pics were taken and have really grown into some nice birds with great lacing.
Did blue to blue this year to get some splash, and yes all the blues werent nearly this good, and had little to no lacing. But when bred to black, they all come out that way
this is what our blues look like when bred to black
These were just 6-7 months old when these pics were taken and have really grown into some nice birds with great lacing.
Did blue to blue this year to get some splash, and yes all the blues werent nearly this good, and had little to no lacing. But when bred to black, they all come out that way
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In various pictures I've seen Dun looks somewhat laced as well, should Dun have lacing like a good Blue has?
Would the best way to breed for this be to cross back to Blacks?
Would the best way to breed for this be to cross back to Blacks?
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