swollen water filled darkened waddles! swollen face!

[Kimiko]

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The drug has been banned. Whether you agree with the science behind it or not is irrelevant from the FDAs standpoint.

(Although apparently the cephalosporins have been put on hold for now)

The withdrawal time for broilers is 2 days. It is not to be used in laying hens--which means an effective lifetime ban on use as a food producing animal.

Per FARAD:

BAYTRIL Rx 140-828
Manufactured by : Bayer HealthCare LLC, Animal Health Division Withdrawn by FDA
Water Additive
Formulation: Each mL contains 32.3 mg enrofloxacin
Warnings: Do not use in laying hens producing eggs for human consumption.
Route: Oral
Dosage Form: Solution, Concentrate
Active Ingredients(s): enrofloxacin
Drug Classification(s): EXTRA-LABEL USE PROHIBITED IN FOOD ANIMALS
Quinolones, extended spectrum
Chickens (not for laying hens)
Meat Withdrawal: 2 Day(s)
Additional W/D Time: N/V
Milk Withdrawal: N/V

 

[speckledhen]

Yet, vets are still prescribing Baytril and Cipro when needed. They work. I have heard about the baytril ban and how disappointed flock owners are about that, those who know anyway.
Quite frankly, in my opinion, unless you are a commercial poultry operation, I see no need to worry about what the FDA has banned. Baytril cant be found at feedstores to my knowledge; I believe it must be prescribed,and still is, but many off label things are used for chickens every day. If you treat a chicken with anything, it's pretty much a given that it's off label, from what I've read. Till the FDA gets on the ball and cares about backyard flock owners, there will be no meds designated for chickens. Their entire slant is commercial production. I have no such constainsts on how I manage my own backyard flock. And how the heck will most flock owners even know what's kosher to use on their birds? They dont. They wouldnt even think to ask if one was prescribed.

All that said, my treatment for any ill bird (respiratory) will be to cull. I have a closed flock and have never had any of those issues, but I decided long before I had chickens, because of the carrier status of many of these diseases, that the only treatment is to cull the bird. No other options exist for me. I will not take one to the vet, cant really. And avian vets are non-existant here, if I could even afford one. I have a crippled rooster who developed a serious infection in his hock joint. I tried several rounds of both penicillin and lincomycin, both of which we had on hand from treating bumblefoot a while back. Neither worked. Dr. Peter Brown, who is not a vet but was a vet tech for years and holds a PhD in poultry science, sent me Cipro. Before that I was resigned to losing my cherished rooster. The Cipro knocked out the infection and he's been doing well for many months now. I would have lost him if it had not been for that drug. And knowing what the FDA says about it, I'd still use it for a situation like I had with this very important rooster.

Kimiko, we're glad to have your knowledge and experience here on BYC. I hope you continue to give your input, especially in the Diseases section.

***All of the above statements are my own personal opinion. Every person has to decide for himself what to do in those situations. If you have access to an avian vet and can afford it, by all means take your birds there. It is not an option for me.
​

 

[Kimiko]

They do work, there's no argument about that. You can still use them, but you should be advised that they are banned and be aware of withdrawal especially if you sell your eggs.

Technically, if you are only feeding yourself or your family--you've been informed.

A rooster isn't going to lay eggs so you can use whatever you like.

My concern is that people are using the drugs without being informed and aware of the laws and/or culling chickens and consuming them without knowing withdrawal periods for any drugs on board. If you know and choose to do it anyway, that's your choice, but I think people should KNOW. There are several drugs that are designated for use in chickens with withdrawal times.

My second concern is the seemingly random choice and dosing of drugs for every imaginable ailment. It would be ideal to have a vet in on the prescribing process, but there doesn't seem, (at least to me), to be any kind of rhyme or reason to the drugs used let along dosages.

I also have horses and equine owners also tend to self-treat, but there's an underlying structure to what's going on and what's given in terms of type, amount and duration.

It was just a bit shocking to go through the threads and see lists of antibiotics recommended willy nilly or the same antibiotic used for an upper respiratory and a leg problem that didn't even have an infection in evidence--but the drug was made up, so why not. That's just me. apparently I'm sensitive ('

 

[speckledhen]

My second concern is the seemingly random choice and dosing of drugs for every imaginable ailment

Oh, I'm completely with you there!! It's my biggest pet peeve of all. Maybe you can help me with this issue on BYC!

Part of the problem is the stupid feedstore personnel who tell them to give Terramycin for everything under the sun, even giving it to day old chicks for some reason I cannot fathom. I do not use antibiotics for any of my hens because I sell eggs to a customer who is a heart patient. She made sure I didn't give my girls any of that stuff before she bought from me. The first year I had birds, I had one girl who could not shake bumblefoot and the antibiotics were for her. I quit because none of them did any good and topical treatment did just as well.​

 

[dlhunicorn]

If you search the older threads (or go back to threads on the original BYC) you will find the articles/URLS from veterinary source and/or poultryscience source articles given for those dosages and withdrawal times.... otherwise do a search in my library. Willynily statements such as assuming ppl just advise a drug and dosage off the top of their head are also unhelpful.

 

[Kimiko]

Quote:
Baytril has been banned in the US for poultry since 2005. There is no withdrawal time for egg producing hens because the drug can't be used in them. I haven't done a search, but if your sources say otherwise, they are out of date.

Sorry, you've lost me again. "Statements" implies more than one--you have only one example and I never made that statement or assumption directly or by implication. I'm guessing by the fact your sentence starts with "Wilynily" [sic] and ends with "unhelpful" you have an issue with something I wrote. I'm more than happy to address it if I know what it is.

 

[sammi]

it seems to me that the withdrawal time for meat birds, or other animals..
would also apply to the eggs of laying hens...

 

[Kimiko]

If only it were that simple....

Animals metabolize different drugs at different rates and in different ways. That's why there are different withholding times for anything from cows, sheep, goats and chickens to reindeer and bison. It's why we can take tylenol and cats die when you give it to them. It's why a 50# dog dose of a drug can treat an 1000# horse.

In chickens, pre-ovulatory egg yolks can be formed 2-6 weeks prior to seeing the egg. Yolk and albumin both serve as depositories for drugs--how much gets stored depends on the drug, dosage and length of time given. So while the chicken metabolizes the drug and it's cleared from it's tissues, the yolk is protected and traces of drug can be found in it.

The half-life (t 1/2) of the drug is the length of time it takes for 1/2 of the drug to go away. 5 half lives is usually the cut-off for drugs out of the system. If you have a drug with a t1/2 of 10 hours, it takes 50 hours or roughly 2 1/2 days for the animal to have it out of it's system. Egg yolks with drug residues may be found 6 weeks + 2 1/2 days after you stopped giving the drug. A drug with a 1/2 life of 7 days...well, you get the idea.

In reality, withdrawal times are often given based on studies of egg yolks and how much of any particular drug can be found in them at any given time which depends on how readily the drug is incorporated into the yolk. Ampicillin, for example, has a t 1/2 of 90 minutes. If you give one shot, it's cleared from the chicken in < 24 hours, but can be found in egg yolks 8 days later. If you give it for 3 days, it's gone from the chicken by day 1, but the yolks have detectable quantities for 9 days after the last dose.

Probably more information than you wanted to know.....

 

[sammi]

always interested in information.

 

[Kimiko]

Regarding the drugs: if you are a commercial poultry farmer--no, you can't use them. Period. End of story.

Is the FDA going to track one of us down--probably not. But you could run into a problem if you sell your eggs and something happens.

Ignorance is not going to protect you. A Veterinarian has to advise you you cannot consume the animal or it's products. That's the law. Are they going to risk their license and tell you otherwise? Probably not. Is someone on the list going to drop a dime on you and get you busted? Doubtful (Hopefully

).

All I'm saying is know what you are using, why you are using it and how you should use it. Antibiotics, especially in chickens, can cause secondary fungal infections and GI upset. You can also get bacterial resistance especially to antibiotics like the tetracyclines. You don't want to make the animal worse and you don't want to grow the ultimate resistant Salmonella in your backyard.

There are appropriate antibiotics for certain conditions, and inappropriate ones that won't accomplish anything. There are also some situations (like Mycoplasma), where treating with antibiotics has to be carefully considered and may not be recommended.