Thank you MiniBeesKnees, That was a great description just now, i'm getting it. How high is it? And I think the nylon netting is brilliant too! That had to drive the mama crazy when the chicks got away from her.
Temporary Breeding Pens Within the Coop
- Thread starter Diavolicchio
- Start date
John, this is not a physics thought experiment, it is what actually happens in actual open-sided buildings of various shapes and configurations, something which I have a fair bit of personal experience with.
As far as Woods' book goes, you should KNOW I've read it, as I have previously directed you (on your other big thread) to my *review and commentary* on it
Woods TELLS YOU repeatedly in the book that it is crucial to have long narrow houses in order for it to be sufficiently breeze-free. That is precisely why his designs are built that way no matter what the overall square footage, and the only one of other peoples' houses that *isn't* much deeper than wide is the one used with a full curtain and housing only Wyandottes (pea-combed).
I suppose you are going to want citations. Let me page through for a while and I will edit this post with quotations, k? (edited to add them, all page numbers refer to the Norton Creek Press edition:
p.68- "The Tolman house is an excellent fresh-air house suitable for colony houses of varying dimensions to suit the poultryman's requirements, always keeping the proportions about the same; the house being considerably deeper from back to front than it is wide, except in the [lone] case of the square pattern of this house" [though note that that square plan is only 20' on a side and has a solid partition running up the middle of the house about halfway forwards from the back wall, so it is not entirely one open square chamber; all but one of the relatively-few 20x20' open-air houses he cites in his book have this half-wall, and the one that doesn't is closed by curtains in bad weather and not all the width of the front is open anyhow]
pp. 92 and following, he discusses construction of long-houses out using his plans. He does not even consider the option of making the units run the full length of the house or in fact *any* wider than in his individual houses; the entire section is about using his houses as repeated sections. Figure 41 on p. 95 shows his 10x16' house in repeating units, and he comments in the text "Fig 42 gives detail partitions in this long house. There is a solid partition every 20 ft. which prevents wind from getting a long sweep thru house such as would occur if wire partitions were used thru whole length". What he is saying is that the front of the long house is partitioned at 10' intervals; every alternate partition is a totally solid wall, while the intervening ones are half-solid, half-wire (see his diagram for which parts are solid vs mesh)
p. 96, he quotes some wyandotte breeder talking about an older closed-house design that he disliked, consisting of pens with an alley running the length of the building just inside the back wall for human access to the pens, "we never liked this house <snip> the alleyway was the cause of making it drafty, and drafts in a poultry house are the cause of much sickness". He's saying that when you have a long open alley down the back of the house, you can't simply open the front side, b/c the wind gets inside.
p. 116-117: "There are three essential features of the Woods house besides the open front: (a) a high rear section and low front section with unobstructed floor space from back wall to open front; (b) a deep house from front to back, square in the case of 20x20 house, much deeper than wide in case of 10x16 and smaller sizes"
There may be other references, my speed-reading eyes pooped out at about that point
Basically it boils down to, you only get the favorable vertical-dimension circulation he describes IF you have the roofline not-too-weirdly shaped AND the front opening not very high AND no serious obstructions within the house; and you still have to worry about unfavorable (windy) circulation in the horizontal plane, which can only be avoided by making the chamber (or chambers) significantly deeper than wide. And this cannot be scaled-up indefinitely. As the open side of the building gets wider, more and more wind-swirls get in even if the building is quite deep and thus still deeper-than-wide. 20' is pushing it. Narrower is a lot better. And if you're using 20' wide, you really ought (esp. in Maine) to have other means of damping air currents.
That happy little "air cushion" figure in Woods' book that you have pasted into your post above is pretty seriously bogus, btw. I have a hard time believing that it was drawn from actual data-taking as opposed to "this is how it seems to me and I know I'm right"; and even insofar as it may have derived from experience, its fatal flaw is that the wet finger method only tells you about one-sided directional air flow. Random swirly turbulent airflow penetrates MUCH further into open-sided buildings than that figure gives you any clue of (exact details depending on building shape and how high the open front, and the rest of the ceiling, are). Most of the air in that house beyond his 'wet finger line' isn't *still*. Again, this is not theory, this is actual experience/observation. Not just from me, from the livestock industry as a whole.
This is why I said on the other thread that you gotta be reeeaaaalll careful in making apparently-harmless modifications to this type house. Things you might not, without lots of experience in the field, *expect* to change the dynamics of airflow in the house, sometimes DO.
A 20' deep, 24' wide single chamber is really not a smart bet for an open-front coop in Maine. In my opinion, which is derived from more than just Woods' books but I suspect that if you could hold a seance you would find Woods agreeing
Pat
As far as Woods' book goes, you should KNOW I've read it, as I have previously directed you (on your other big thread) to my *review and commentary* on it
Woods TELLS YOU repeatedly in the book that it is crucial to have long narrow houses in order for it to be sufficiently breeze-free. That is precisely why his designs are built that way no matter what the overall square footage, and the only one of other peoples' houses that *isn't* much deeper than wide is the one used with a full curtain and housing only Wyandottes (pea-combed).
I suppose you are going to want citations. Let me page through for a while and I will edit this post with quotations, k? (edited to add them, all page numbers refer to the Norton Creek Press edition:
p.68- "The Tolman house is an excellent fresh-air house suitable for colony houses of varying dimensions to suit the poultryman's requirements, always keeping the proportions about the same; the house being considerably deeper from back to front than it is wide, except in the [lone] case of the square pattern of this house" [though note that that square plan is only 20' on a side and has a solid partition running up the middle of the house about halfway forwards from the back wall, so it is not entirely one open square chamber; all but one of the relatively-few 20x20' open-air houses he cites in his book have this half-wall, and the one that doesn't is closed by curtains in bad weather and not all the width of the front is open anyhow]
pp. 92 and following, he discusses construction of long-houses out using his plans. He does not even consider the option of making the units run the full length of the house or in fact *any* wider than in his individual houses; the entire section is about using his houses as repeated sections. Figure 41 on p. 95 shows his 10x16' house in repeating units, and he comments in the text "Fig 42 gives detail partitions in this long house. There is a solid partition every 20 ft. which prevents wind from getting a long sweep thru house such as would occur if wire partitions were used thru whole length". What he is saying is that the front of the long house is partitioned at 10' intervals; every alternate partition is a totally solid wall, while the intervening ones are half-solid, half-wire (see his diagram for which parts are solid vs mesh)
p. 96, he quotes some wyandotte breeder talking about an older closed-house design that he disliked, consisting of pens with an alley running the length of the building just inside the back wall for human access to the pens, "we never liked this house <snip> the alleyway was the cause of making it drafty, and drafts in a poultry house are the cause of much sickness". He's saying that when you have a long open alley down the back of the house, you can't simply open the front side, b/c the wind gets inside.
p. 116-117: "There are three essential features of the Woods house besides the open front: (a) a high rear section and low front section with unobstructed floor space from back wall to open front; (b) a deep house from front to back, square in the case of 20x20 house, much deeper than wide in case of 10x16 and smaller sizes"
There may be other references, my speed-reading eyes pooped out at about that point
Basically it boils down to, you only get the favorable vertical-dimension circulation he describes IF you have the roofline not-too-weirdly shaped AND the front opening not very high AND no serious obstructions within the house; and you still have to worry about unfavorable (windy) circulation in the horizontal plane, which can only be avoided by making the chamber (or chambers) significantly deeper than wide. And this cannot be scaled-up indefinitely. As the open side of the building gets wider, more and more wind-swirls get in even if the building is quite deep and thus still deeper-than-wide. 20' is pushing it. Narrower is a lot better. And if you're using 20' wide, you really ought (esp. in Maine) to have other means of damping air currents.
That happy little "air cushion" figure in Woods' book that you have pasted into your post above is pretty seriously bogus, btw. I have a hard time believing that it was drawn from actual data-taking as opposed to "this is how it seems to me and I know I'm right"; and even insofar as it may have derived from experience, its fatal flaw is that the wet finger method only tells you about one-sided directional air flow. Random swirly turbulent airflow penetrates MUCH further into open-sided buildings than that figure gives you any clue of (exact details depending on building shape and how high the open front, and the rest of the ceiling, are). Most of the air in that house beyond his 'wet finger line' isn't *still*. Again, this is not theory, this is actual experience/observation. Not just from me, from the livestock industry as a whole.
This is why I said on the other thread that you gotta be reeeaaaalll careful in making apparently-harmless modifications to this type house. Things you might not, without lots of experience in the field, *expect* to change the dynamics of airflow in the house, sometimes DO.
A 20' deep, 24' wide single chamber is really not a smart bet for an open-front coop in Maine. In my opinion, which is derived from more than just Woods' books but I suspect that if you could hold a seance you would find Woods agreeing
Pat
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AH, perfect!
See the bottom drawing in post #29?
At the very bottom of that drawing is the allowance for the doors to swing.
That is exactly the shape I'm talking about.
The fencing is attached to two perpendicular walls but attached further from the corner on one end.
The fencing naturally curves...and once you have it attached...
Shape that curve neatly to be four feet across the arc of the curve...then cut a piece of the fencing the depth of that arc...in other words the distance from the back wall to the front of the curve. I tacked two corners of this top to framing members I just happen to have four feet up (the height of the fencing roll) and bent down the two corners on the front arc of the pen so it wouldn't stick out.
The whole thing is held together with zip ties...and has an open bottom.
Do the first two ties at each end of the top where it is nailed to the studs.
Do the third tie exactly in the middle of the front of the arc. This keeps it in a nice curve...
Then put more zip ties along the rest of the top to provide sturdiness, and maintain the shape and keep the top on.
I took a pair of wire cutters and made a door by just cutting the wires...I duct taped the ends of the wires that stuck out. It is hinged at the top by it's own welded wire meaning I only cut an opening on two sides, and the bottom of that door. I put my door a foot high as I put a foot of straw in each one.
Terry in TN
See the bottom drawing in post #29?
At the very bottom of that drawing is the allowance for the doors to swing.
That is exactly the shape I'm talking about.
The fencing is attached to two perpendicular walls but attached further from the corner on one end.
The fencing naturally curves...and once you have it attached...
Shape that curve neatly to be four feet across the arc of the curve...then cut a piece of the fencing the depth of that arc...in other words the distance from the back wall to the front of the curve. I tacked two corners of this top to framing members I just happen to have four feet up (the height of the fencing roll) and bent down the two corners on the front arc of the pen so it wouldn't stick out.
The whole thing is held together with zip ties...and has an open bottom.
Do the first two ties at each end of the top where it is nailed to the studs.
Do the third tie exactly in the middle of the front of the arc. This keeps it in a nice curve...
Then put more zip ties along the rest of the top to provide sturdiness, and maintain the shape and keep the top on.
I took a pair of wire cutters and made a door by just cutting the wires...I duct taped the ends of the wires that stuck out. It is hinged at the top by it's own welded wire meaning I only cut an opening on two sides, and the bottom of that door. I put my door a foot high as I put a foot of straw in each one.
Terry in TN
Ahhhhhh got it!! Thank you very much! I will be going out to get some wire today. One last question... are you having any problem with other chickens roosting on top of it?
I made a wooden brooder and it's in the coop. The chickens want to roost on top and they poop in the feed and water below when they do. I have a roll of wire on top of it so they can't fit anymore. Darn if they don't manage to roost in the tiny corners that the wire doesn't cover.
MiniBee, Have you considered 1/4" hardware cloth for the hen/chick brooder?
Not trying to hijack.. but I think this is good info for you also, Diavolicchio
I made a wooden brooder and it's in the coop. The chickens want to roost on top and they poop in the feed and water below when they do. I have a roll of wire on top of it so they can't fit anymore. Darn if they don't manage to roost in the tiny corners that the wire doesn't cover.
MiniBee, Have you considered 1/4" hardware cloth for the hen/chick brooder?
Not trying to hijack.. but I think this is good info for you also, Diavolicchio
Last edited by a moderator:
- Thread starter
- #35
Quote:
Pat,
No need to bother with citations. I'm holding the book.
If what I need to do is to divide the main hen pen into two areas, much as you see in the bottom diagram of Post #29, then no problem.
The pens will measure 8' x 20, 8' x 20', 12' x 20' and 12' x 20' respectively.
John
Pat,
No need to bother with citations. I'm holding the book.
If what I need to do is to divide the main hen pen into two areas, much as you see in the bottom diagram of Post #29, then no problem.
The pens will measure 8' x 20, 8' x 20', 12' x 20' and 12' x 20' respectively.
John
John, I think I'd consider some venting at the top of your roofline on the flat, vertical part.
That drawing is not totally accurate pertaining to the air flow. As drawn, you are going to have a hot, wet area in the highest part that is going to be a heat trap with stagnant movement.
Physics as I understand it/them from turning into an engineer earlier in my life do not work regarding the air flow as he drew.
Heat rises, cold sinks. The only way hot wet air can escape from that roofline is when that air is blown out or drifts out naturally...which will never be down ever. It will take a pretty big wind to blow it out of that pocket. Too much wind for the chickens.
Terry in TN
That drawing is not totally accurate pertaining to the air flow. As drawn, you are going to have a hot, wet area in the highest part that is going to be a heat trap with stagnant movement.
Physics as I understand it/them from turning into an engineer earlier in my life do not work regarding the air flow as he drew.
Heat rises, cold sinks. The only way hot wet air can escape from that roofline is when that air is blown out or drifts out naturally...which will never be down ever. It will take a pretty big wind to blow it out of that pocket. Too much wind for the chickens.
Terry in TN
- Thread starter
- #37
Quote:
Terry:
Those aren't my drawings; they're from the book that Pat and I have been discussing.
John
Terry:
Those aren't my drawings; they're from the book that Pat and I have been discussing.
John
- Thread starter
- #38
Quote:
Pat,
For the record, the open 50' x 50' house below was built to house 500 leghorns or 400 'of the heavier breeds.' Nothing mentioned about Wyandottes regarding this design.
He also goes on to say:
"Positively no curtains [emphasis is Woods'] of any sort used in this house. The front stays wide open year 'round." House just as deep as it is wide, too. And LOOK at all of those windows! Almost makes your teeth chatter, eh?
Are you sure we're reading the same version of the book?
John
Pat,
For the record, the open 50' x 50' house below was built to house 500 leghorns or 400 'of the heavier breeds.' Nothing mentioned about Wyandottes regarding this design.
He also goes on to say:
"Positively no curtains [emphasis is Woods'] of any sort used in this house. The front stays wide open year 'round." House just as deep as it is wide, too. And LOOK at all of those windows! Almost makes your teeth chatter, eh?
Are you sure we're reading the same version of the book?
John
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Rustywoman I look at that covering with small openings as temporary. I considered hardware cloth until I priced it. Last year when I had chicks in a pen I used the plastic stuff with small openings...not as expensive as hardware cloth, but not cheap either. I put it 18" up all around the pen and it took them exactly two days to learn to fly up to the part of the fencing with two by four inch openings, land on it...and jump down and outside. Yes, the hen got frantic.
This year I may have as many as six A frame pens to cover...each side is four feet to be covered...by six and a half feet. I'll only keep it covered...and I'm thinking of clothespins to keep it on (the outside) until they are too big to get through the two inch opening. I don't remember from last year how old this was. They can squeeze through it when they are pretty big.
Since I'll have part covered by a tarp, I can probably use a piece six feet wide (as the netting is) by about nine feet to go over the top...from side to side. That means I'll need about three yards for each one...six of them means that's eighteen yards of the stuff...plus the ends. I'll let everyone know how it works...if it does...after I have some chicks. For that price even if I throw it away after one season...for 26 bucks I'll have enough for two seasons...and that is cheap!
Terry in TN
This year I may have as many as six A frame pens to cover...each side is four feet to be covered...by six and a half feet. I'll only keep it covered...and I'm thinking of clothespins to keep it on (the outside) until they are too big to get through the two inch opening. I don't remember from last year how old this was. They can squeeze through it when they are pretty big.
Since I'll have part covered by a tarp, I can probably use a piece six feet wide (as the netting is) by about nine feet to go over the top...from side to side. That means I'll need about three yards for each one...six of them means that's eighteen yards of the stuff...plus the ends. I'll let everyone know how it works...if it does...after I have some chicks. For that price even if I throw it away after one season...for 26 bucks I'll have enough for two seasons...and that is cheap!
Terry in TN
John, I realize it is not your drawing....
I'm just saying his physics are not going to work all that well.
He may know chickens, but he is not adhering to the laws of physics.
His unvented roofline is wishful thinking when it comes to air movement.
Terry in TN
I'm just saying his physics are not going to work all that well.
He may know chickens, but he is not adhering to the laws of physics.
His unvented roofline is wishful thinking when it comes to air movement.
Terry in TN
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