The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[bluenkimchi]

I should clarify, I know TM line of hens aren't bantam, but just rather smaller size birds and they come in different shapes as well. Some are leggy with an oriental game look, others are short legged with an old English game hen look. That is all

Though I would still like to know how the oriental look of the native birds change so much since being brought to Europe? Is it because of the inbred factor of this land race?

 

[Steadfast]

DC
What can I say.

Mikes lines come from Indonisia just like TM and GGF. The Smithsonian traveled out there to get "the real thing" and then brought them back decades before the bird flu.

To say they are not "real Ayam Cemani" is disingenuous at best. To say that one can not breed black with his lines is big time hog wash too. The facts are that Every line out now needs heavy culling to get to a uniform industry standard.

I like you DC, and I totally get it that you are trying to protect a standard, but this disinformation appears to be more of an attempt cornering the market than information sharing. It is vanity not genetics. The facts are not on your side on this front.

Stop poisoning the water and slandering folks and get back to what you do best which is to encourage folks to do there best, and leading the way on owning examples of quality.

 

[DCchicken]

The Smithsonian line is false. No Ayam Cemani were imported for the Smithsonian. That is just the word of Mike which wants to sell his birds. It's been a running joke in the Ayam Cemani community for a while that we knew all knew the source of Mike's chicks. They came from a breeder in the States that crossed them with Lavender leghorns. They are hybrids and will NEVER BE AYAM CEMANI. There is no actual import permits or proof that either Mike nor the Smithsonian ever imported Ayam Cemani. It's all just Mike's marketing material.

I am not trying to corner the market on Ayam Cemani. In fact, I routinely connect people with other Ayam Cemani breeders. I don't care whether people buy from me, Greenfire, or another breeder. The idea is to improve the breed. However, Mike clearly advertised them as Ayam Cemani, which is false. The chicks he sent me are cheap knock-offs of Ayam Cemani. When I asked for a refund, he refused.

I know that everyone wants to believe that the "Smithsonian line" is real. No one, including myself, likes the idea that we all got duped. I gave him a shot and waited patiently for 7 months for the blackest pair. And my patience was rewarded with Cemani knock-offs. They are not even close to either the Indonesian or Dutch Standards.

So I have been thinking about what to do with the knock-offs. I am going to breed them and create a new breed called "Smithies". I am going to sell them for $5 each. I think with a little work and culling for size, I can turn them into a grayish meat bird.

Edited by staff

 

[Steadfast]

TM and GFF simply have a 2-3 year lead "breeding black" over the rest of us.

Which is clear from GFF's early red waddled rooster photos.

This is an encouragement to me. Because they have shown us that it can be done and that The Black standard can be acquired in a short amount if time of heavy culling.

 

[cjwaldon]

DC, you waited 7 months for the blackest pair and he sent this?



That pretty much speaks for itself about the quality of Mike's birds regardless of source or suspected breeding.

 

[DCchicken]

TM and GFF simply have a 2-3 year lead "breeding black" over the rest of us.

Which is clear from GFF's early red waddled rooster photos.

This is an encouragement to me. Because they have shown us that it can be done and that The Black standard can be acquired in a short amount if time of heavy culling.

The TM Astin and Greenfire lines have the correct genes to make the hyperpigmentation work. Hybrids do not. You can't just breed to get the correct genes. They have to be there in the first place. Now if someone were take the hybrids and mate them with a legitimate FM breed (Ayam Cemani, Svart Hona, Ogye, Silkie) for years (not just generations) with heavy culling, you might start to approach the Dutch Standard for Ayam Cemani.

The Smithies are a project breed and should be labelled as such. I own them now and will love and care for them like all of my birds. But I value them at around $5 each, the same as I get for all of my cull birds.

If anyone wants to get on the list for my Smithies, I am going to send out eggs for free as soon they are laying. Just send me a PM. You are not going to get black skin but if you want something that is "Cemani-ish", (with an emphasis on the ish part), you don't have to break the bank to get a pair of the famous "Smithsonian Line" I am now dubbing "Smithies".

 

[DCchicken]

DC, you waited 7 months for the blackest pair and he sent this?



That pretty much speaks for itself about the quality of Mike's birds regardless of source or suspected breeding.

Yes. This is an example of what you will get with the Smithsonian line. I am reaching out to my friends that also got pairs from him for other photos.

 

[cjwaldon]

Mike's pair - the male is just too off the mark for me. I may keep him depending on what the Toni-Marie birds turn out to be but he is definite cull.





This is the female. Better phenotypically but not black through out but I will try to breed her

 

[DCchicken]

Below is the Dutch Standard for Ayam Cemani. Notice that lack of black pigment is a disqualification. In other words, the Smithsonian line would not qualify as Ayam Cemani. The U.K. Standard is based upon the Dutch Standard. So the Smithsonian Line would also be disqualified in the U.K. In fact, I will get a U.K. judge to look at my chick's photos and give his opinion.

Male
Type and Carriage: General appearance alert and quite gamey.
Body: medium sized, slim, firm and muscular, wings held strongly to body. Alert bearing
Breast: fairly broad, full and firm.
Back: back medium length, sloping from the neck; saddle hackle rather short.
Wings: long, large and strong, held slightly high at the shoulders. held tight to the body, and not resting on the back. Shoulders – wide and firm.
Tail: held a little high; moderate spread with narrow, medium length sickles. Rump - moderately developed. Parson’s Nose small, and firm, little fluff.
Head: of medium size. Face – black and smooth. wattles medium, small black earlobes, eyes large and full of expression, dark brown to black with black pupils. Comb – single, usually with five points, black. Back of comb not following down the line of the neck. Beak – firm, well curved, black.
Neck: long and firm; the neck hackle reaching to the shoulders.
Legs and Feet: Thighs medium, powerful, set well apart, good bend of hock. Straight parallel medium length shanks - black. Four toes long, strong and well spread, with prop toe standing well back and firm on the ground – black. Well-developed spurs in mature male birds
Plumage: Feathers quite short and close-fitting
Handling: Firm and muscular.
Female
The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for natural sexual differences. The back line of the hen can be less angled, the face is often a more intensive black.
Colour
Plumage – Black. Green sheen is not so obvious as in some black breeds. Skin, face, comb and legs – Black.
Weights
Male 1.8–2kg (approx 4–4½lbs)
Female 1.2-1.5kg (approx 2¾-3½lbs)
Ring Sizes: Cock 18mm (E18) Hen 16mm (D16)
Scale of Points
Feather Colour 20
Skin Colour 30
Type 15
Legs and feet 10
Head 10
Condition 15
Serious defects
Carriage too horizontal. Tail carriage too high or too low. Wings hanging down. Legs too short. Too little black pigment in the skin colour.

 

[boykin2010]

I talked with Mike before many of you even knew he existed. He said he didn't have the importation paperwork on hand because he never planned on selling. However, Anyone who spends over $2000 per bird to import would keep up with the paperwork whether they were selling or not. The USDA visits importers and requires people to keep up with the paperwork (I know this because I am an importer as well.) The Smithsonian has no records of any chicken importation or any Indonesian chicken festival - that should speak for itself.
No one is trying to corner the market, I respect DC for warning other potential buyers because the cemani market is already sketchy enough as it is.
Also, Toni's line, and I'm pretty sure GFF's line do not come directly from Indonesia... Because of the importation bans

Edited by staff