The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Steadfast]

W

I do not include Mike's line as they are hybrid and not original imports. If hybrid lines are inclyded in the list then we woukd have to include the California line that was made using Silkies, or the Ogye line thatas smuggled in.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.
I completely disagree with your opinion.
Of course, Feel free to breed from whatever lines you like.

Just for the record:
These two lines are from Indonesia and they are no more hybrid than any other line out there. These are facts not opinion.

Just say'n
No offense intended.
I hope your hatch goes well.

 

[DCchicken]

I also don't think people should underestimate the value of a Svart Hona outcross to bring in new blood for Cemani if needed. In some cases, the two are so similar depending upon lines that if you crossed to a Svart and back to a Cemani - most people would feel comfortable calling them pure cemani.

I agree the Svart Hona are close enough genetically to be pure Cemani. I constantly get people asking about my Ayam Cemani. But when they go to look at my FB page and see the Svart Hona, many of them prefer the Svart Hona. The Svart Hona that Bryce imported seem more stable than any of Ayam Cemani lines I have seen. I intend on doing a pairing with them as soon as I have a free incubator or broody.

I also can't wait to cross my Svart Hona hens from Bryce with the Greenfire roo I have. So many combinations, not enough pens or time!

 

[DCchicken]

The Smithies were not imported from Indonesia. No one from the Smithsonian has any record of importing them nor does the USDA. That is not opinion. It is fact. What is fact is that a breeder with a single Toni-Marie Astin line hen crossed the hen with lavender leghorn. The chicks from that cross were traded to Mike in New York and form the basis of Mike's hybrid lines.

The only line (and one that I did not include in my question) that actually originate from Indonesia is the Cemani Farms line. There are multiple people that have illegally imported the Cemani Farms line. But none of those imports have legal import paperwork. So they simply don't exist since they have no paperwork.

All other lines originate from Germany (Greenfire), the U.K. (Jordan Farms), or the Netherlands (Toni-Marie Astin line).

Has anyone crossed to Jordan Farms line?

 

[tridentk9]

The Smithies were not imported from Indonesia.  No one from the Smithsonian has any record of importing them nor does the USDA.  

The only line (and one that I did not include in my question) that actually originate from Indonesia is the Cemani Farms line.  There are multiple people that have illegally imported the Cemani Farms line.  But none of those imports have legal import paperwork.  So they simply don't exist since they have no paperwork.

Is it possible paperwork exists but lists a different breed, importer, etc? Sometimes it's easier or less expensive if a different breed is listed. Bribes, or special fees, can depend on rarity. That I've gone through with dogs even in the past 20 years.

I can understand the lack of paperwork being a problem with animals that have a registration system. But even AKC, the bastion of knowing lineages, has accepted some registrations based on handwritten pedigrees. Desert-bred Salukis are an ongoing example as well as the Basenjis from Africa imported in 87-88. With the Desert-breds they do have to produce offspring that looks like a Saluki, registration *may* be allowed on the third generation.

I don't know if the Smithsonian lines is worthy of being bred. That's a whole 'nother story from paperwork problems. I just find this breed interesting. I am looking for info on the melanocyte migration while an embryo, anyone have links on that as far as the Cemani or Svart Hona? Is it different in those breeds?

 

[DCchicken]

Is it possible paperwork exists but lists a different breed, importer, etc? Sometimes it's easier or less expensive if a different breed is listed. Bribes, or special fees, can depend on rarity. That I've gone through with dogs even in the past 20 years.

I can understand the lack of paperwork being a problem with animals that have a registration system. But even AKC, the bastion of knowing lineages, has accepted some registrations based on handwritten pedigrees. Desert-bred Salukis are an ongoing example as well as the Basenjis from Africa imported in 87-88. With the Desert-breds they do have to produce offspring that looks like a Saluki, registration *may* be allowed on the third generation.

I don't know if the Smithsonian lines is worthy of being bred. That's a whole 'nother story from paperwork problems. I just find this breed interesting. I am looking for info on the melanocyte migration while an embryo, anyone have links on that as far as the Cemani or Svart Hona? Is it different in those breeds?

Actually the USDA rules, fees, and paperwork are the same regardless of the breed. You simply cannot import from Indonesia or any of the banned countries. And the permit is only good for the specific breeder and farm that the eggs are coming from. So you can't just bring a suitcase full of eggs over on the plane. The farm has to get every bird on the property tested for a whole list of diseases. And then you have to pay by the hour for the USDA vet to inspect the eggs at the port of entry. All of that generates fees and paperwork. No paperwork = not legitimate. If you are caught with illegitimate eggs or birds, the USDA can come in and destroy your ENTIRE flock, fine you, may even send you to jail just to set an example of breaking the rules. We are not talking about a $50 parking ticket. The fines are enormous, not to mention that you would then probably be visited by the USDA for regular inspections. Do not encourage the practice of illegal importers. They risk all of our poultry in this country.

So no paperwork means the birds do not exist and therefore cannot be sold. Poultry is different than other animals as chickens spread disease usually by sharing water. Interestingly you are allowed to import pet birds but not poultry from banned countries but you would still have to pay for quarantine at $21 a day per bird. Plus there are vet fees (time and expense) just to examine them before, during, and after quarantine.

I am in the process of importing another line from Europe that is unrelated to any of the lines already here. The cost is high and you can be I would hold on to that paperwork for life (just as Bryce stated). I actually just talked to the USDA about my import application today. I am not sure what I have gotten myself into but I might as charge ahead.

 

[boykin2010]

Actually the USDA rules, fees, and paperwork are the same regardless of the breed. You simply cannot import from Indonesia or any of the banned countries. And the permit is only good for the specific breeder and farm that the eggs are coming from. So you can't just bring a suitcase full of eggs over on the plane. The farm has to get every bird on the property tested for a whole list of diseases. And then you have to pay by the hour for the USDA vet to inspect the eggs at the port of entry. All of that generates fees and paperwork. No paperwork = not legitimate. If you are caught with illegitimate eggs or birds, the USDA can come in and destroy your ENTIRE flock, fine you, may even send you to jail just to set an example of breaking the rules. We are not talking about a $50 parking ticket. The fines are enormous, not to mention that you would then probably be visited by the USDA for regular inspections. Do not encourage the practice of illegal importers. They risk all of our poultry in this country.

So no paperwork means the birds do not exist and therefore cannot be sold. Poultry is different than other animals as chickens spread disease usually by sharing water. Interestingly you are allowed to import pet birds but not poultry from banned countries but you would still have to pay for quarantine at $21 a day per bird. Plus there are vet fees (time and expense) just to examine them before, during, and after quarantine.

I am in the process of importing another line from Europe that is unrelated to any of the lines already here. The cost is high and you can be I would hold on to that paperwork for life (just as Bryce stated). I actually just talked to the USDA about my import application today. I am not sure what I have gotten myself into but I might as charge ahead.

Yep Yep, everything you stated is 100% accurate. Been through the whole importing process myself and it's a PAIN. A mountain of paperwork.
Also, no one should take lightly the whole USDA inspection thing. The USDA has visited illegal importers in the past and killed/burned all chickens on the property because paperwork wasn't in order (or non-existant.) That's why I am so careful with everything I do because even if you are 100% legal, they still visit to make sure paperwork is kept up. Importing can be scary and a challege, but very rewarding in the end. Can't wait to see pictures of the new line DC

 

[tridentk9]

Is the problem not that they lack paperwork per se, it's *why* they lack paperwork? Ahhh, now I understand why they don't exist. Even though I always wanted a Black Palm Cockatoo the risks were not worth it, to me and to my friends.


The "extra fees" I paid were from the exporting country. Bribes were still fairly common at the time. Once you start the process, the first extra bit seems reasonable. But it doesn't stop there. We didn't go through USDA, we went through US Customs, their fees were based on value. When I answered priceless for the value of one it wasn't in their book. I though it meant there shouldn't be any fees.

Just as a side question- are DNA IDs or parentages done on poultry?

Good luck with your plans.

 

[DCchicken]

Is the problem not that they lack paperwork per se, it's *why* they lack paperwork? Ahhh, now I understand why they don't exist. Even though I always wanted a Black Palm Cockatoo the risks were not worth it, to me and to my friends.


The "extra fees" I paid were from the exporting country. Bribes were still fairly common at the time. Once you start the process, the first extra bit seems reasonable. But it doesn't stop there. We didn't go through USDA, we went through US Customs, their fees were based on value. When I answered priceless for the value of one it wasn't in their book. I though it meant there shouldn't be any fees.

Just as a side question- are DNA IDs or parentages done on poultry?

Good luck with your plans.

You still have to go through customs plus you have to pay for a USDA inspector at the airport. If they are eggs, they test them there and you get to take them home. If they are animals, they transport them to a quarantine facility. Then you pay for each day of quarantine. And there is no guarantee that the animal will make it through quarantine. So you may pay all that money for the vet fees overseas and the quarantine fees and the application fees and NOT get your birds. The vet at the USDA I spoke with today said, there are people that import thousands of eggs at a time and there are people that import 10 eggs. The process and fees are the same (except for the time and materials for the vets of course).

I may pull out the rest of my hair before it is done. I have a new respect for Jenny and Paul at Greenfire now.

 

[Phage]

What does the paperwork actually involve?

 

[DCchicken]

What does the paperwork actually involve?

Here is a summary of the process from the USDA:

http://nvap.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/live_poultry.shtml

It gave me a headache the first time I read it. The hardest part is actually getting the farm in the other country to do all the testing and get the health certificate. That also can be the most expensive part of the process. And remember these are just the requirements by the USDA. The airline and the exporting country may also have requirements above the ones from the USDA.

At least there is a live person you can talk to at the USDA headquarters in Maryland. The lady I spoke with today said there is no way at all that any poultry has been imported from Indonesia. She approves the import applications and already knew the breed. She said the Indonesian Government is just not setup to work with the USDA to eradicate AI and there would not be enough commercial volume for the U.S. to setup quarantine facilities there.

I guess if we ever want to see Ayam Cemani directly imported from Indonesia, the farmers in that country are going to have to eradicate AI, Newcastle, and other serious illnesses on their own.