The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Ravynscroft]

Figured I would share the "pure" egg with black dots. This is not a true claim. This is the second egg that has this. It's mold. Taking eggs from about zero to 80 degrees will make moisture in the egg. It's a very basic concept of when hot meets cold.

Except I found those black spots in shells of mine and my Cemanis stopped laying before it got cold... they both went broody... so all the eggs I set weren't cold before incubating... birdman, I am not saying it indicates anything 'pure' but it is a curiosity to me...

 

[Pyxis]

Except I found those black spots in shells of mine and my Cemanis stopped laying before it got cold... they both went broody... so all the eggs I set weren't cold before incubating... birdman, I am not saying it indicates anything 'pure' but it is a curiosity to me...

Same here, my eggs were set long before temps hit zero and in this last hatch my eggs had the black dots (this is the first time I've bothered to check). I too am not saying it really indicates things as far as purity, may just be something that happens with fibro breeds, but I really don't think it would be mold that develops in the egg before the chick is hatched or incubated - a moldy egg would never make it to hatch, the embryo would be killed, and the mold spores would have had to get through the bloom into the egg anyhow. I've also never seen it, at least that I've noticed, in any eggs I've incubated that are not fibro breeds, even when taking them right out of a freezing coop and popping them straight into the incubator. Not trying to be argumentative in any way, just sharing my experiences.

 

[cjwaldon]

Birdman what is that egg from? Is it still from a fibro breed or mixed fibro?

 

[dboranch]

My take on it is that they are flecks off of their tiny little down feathers that stick to the egg membranes, They do not fluff out like feathers because they were wet when they got stuck to the membrane. When they are a little too wet in the egg, sometimes I have to help a chick out by performing an eggsarean. There is a gooey substance and once they crack open (or if you open the door of the incubator before they hatch out) it sucks all the humidity out of the egg. If the chick does not absorb all the yolk and moisture in the egg by the time it starts to pip, the gooey substance turns into a glue like substance and some of the very fine down off their feathers becomes glued to the membrane in the egg and gets pulled off their feathers when they push out of the egg.

 

[birdman55]

Morning. The egg is from a svart hona. I have no mixed fibros yet. They are Ayam cemani, svart honas, n Hmong chickens.
So the hen is about 106 degrees when the egg comes out with an incredible amount of pores and starts to cool this is when gasses, oxygen, n moisture takes place and also how the air sac is first developed.
There is a sack attached to the embryo that is called the allantois. This goes around the back and head of the embryo and holds the waste. This is the yukky bit you’ll find left in the shell when the chick hatches. The yolk sack is now very red and full of blood vessels that go out into the alubumen (egg white).

Here is a great read
https://poultrykeeper.com/incubating-and-hatching-eggs/candling-eggs/
http://extension.psu.edu/animals/po...bation/physiological-processes-within-the-egg
I have contacted three different universities and now I'm just waiting for a response

Edited to add, if birds don't hatch themselves. Please people don't hatch the bird. One u don't know if the Yolk is fully absorbed, the bird is not strong enough to hatch so why would u put it in ur breeding program, or hatch a weak bird.
Maybe I just have a more strict breeding policy then most. I used to help but after watching them struggle and stay weak and then later die. It's not worth the time effort or money. Missing eye, crooked toes, the crazy head syndrome where it looks like there reading a book from left to right, and even the I'm gunna spin myself around and around until I die chicken. As u guys know I hatch more then the average. And the hatching products I have are of quality. U can't expect to hatch perfect birds every time. So if they hatch cool if not dispose of them.

 

[Pyxis]

Edited to add, if birds don't hatch themselves. Please people don't hatch the bird. One u don't know if the Yolk is fully absorbed, the bird is not strong enough to hatch so why would u put it in ur breeding program, or hatch a weak bird.
Maybe I just have a more strict breeding policy then most. I used to help but after watching them struggle and stay weak and then later die. It's not worth the time effort or money. Missing eye, crooked toes, the crazy head syndrome where it looks like there reading a book from left to right, and even the I'm gunna spin myself around and around until I die chicken. As u guys know I hatch more then the average. And the hatching products I have are of quality. U can't expect to hatch perfect birds every time. So if they hatch cool if not dispose of them.

I respectfully disagree. Sure, it could be problems with the chick that cause it to not hatch, and if that's the case and I help it out and then there's a problem, I'd cull it. But an overwhelming amount of the time I've helped they couldn't hatch for reasons such as becoming shrink wrapped or being malpositioned, neither of which negatively affect the chick down the road. I even have to help some because they are just so big and healthy that they can't physically turn in the egg. These chicks actually do BETTER than their counterparts who could hatch on their own. Or sometimes it's just a small egg with a big chick, those need to be helped too. So I've found that by not helping I lose more healthy chicks than I run into sickly chicks that need to be culled, so for me it's worth it. I also hatch a lot of shipped eggs of various breeds and they are very prone to the problems I listed above and often need help to get out. And none of those reasons are genetic so none of them will affect the hatching of future generations so there's no harm at all in putting birds from these circumstances into your breeding flock.

The things you listed of course should be culled and not bred but as of yet I haven't run into any one of those things after helping. All I've run into so far is failure to thrive when a chick really was just too weak to get itself out on its own and in two cases I've had chicks that had slipped tendons in both hocks and that's why they couldn't turn to hatch. In those cases, it doesn't go into my breeding flocks. And those cases have been very few and far between. I almost never have to help out chicks from my own flocks anyway, it's mostly shipped eggs that have these problems.

And you're right in that you shouldn't help if you don't know what you're doing because the yolk and blood from the chorioallantoic membrane may not be absorbed, you need to give it time and not jump the gun and go carefully, this is true. But done correctly helping will not harm the chick.

But, everybody does things their own way so I definitely don't fault you for not wanting to help. I just wanted to put my side of it out there too so people can see both sides of the argument before they make a choice

 

[birdman55]

Very well put and I also agree with u. Under those circumstances. However I hatch so many that is an option for me cause it does take up sometime. I need all the time I can get with all the expanding I'm currently doing. Once I'm done building my choices might change and I might just help. Who knows. It was early in the morning when I wrote this. So I definitely missed some things to add. Oops.

I got a response
"I would need to see a photo of the spots to know for sure. It could be mold or a small colony of bacteria. Also, could be dried blood. Would need to see to have an idea."
Phillip J. Clauer
Senior Instructor
Poultry Science Club Advisor
4-H Youth and Specialty Poultry Extension

I sent the picture in so waiting for a response. I would say he is credible.

 

[birdman55]

This is where I get to say I have to pick up the slack and so does everyone else with their sanitation. The picture of the egg with dots is something u do not want. I clean and disinfect every second hatch so that's every 20 days. I use tek trol and that isn't good enough. So every hatch it is a must I will be using bleach water as well. I knew something wasn't right. Also want to add that I have never had this until I got 36 game bird chickens eggs from a different person. So basically if I don't get this after those birds hatch then I know that's where the problem came from. Then I will let the other fArmer that he needs to check his birds

........"Bacterial infection in your environment and/or incubator. Need to do a better job of cleaning and disinfecting egg storage, and incubator between batches of eggs. Also, make sure you do not set dirty eggs even if you try to wash. Have you have poor hatches or infected navels? This will get worse and can become a real problem with the health of your chicks if it continues."

Phillip J. Clauer
Senior Instructor
Poultry Science Club Advisor
4-H Youth and Specialty Poultry Extension

I won't say what I would like to bc people will get affended. But we really need to step it up a notch. That is my goal for 2017 to focus on sanitation and not so much volume. I hope we all learn that when we think we are doing a good job, know that we can do it better.

 

[bullets]

This is where I get to say I have to pick up the slack and so does everyone else with their sanitation. The picture of the egg with dots is something u do not want. I clean and disinfect every second hatch so that's every 20 days. I use tek trol and that isn't good enough. So every hatch it is a must I will be using bleach water as well. I knew something wasn't right. Also want to add that I have never had this until I got 36 game bird chickens eggs from a different person. So basically if I don't get this after those birds hatch then I know that's where the problem came from. Then I will let the other fArmer that he needs to check his birds

........"Bacterial infection in your environment and/or incubator. Need to do a better job of cleaning and disinfecting egg storage, and incubator between batches of eggs. Also, make sure you do not set dirty eggs even if you try to wash. Have you have poor hatches or infected navels? This will get worse and can become a real problem with the health of your chicks if it continues."

Phillip J. Clauer
Senior Instructor
Poultry Science Club Advisor
4-H Youth and Specialty Poultry Extension

I won't say what I would like to bc people will get affended. But we really need to step it up a notch. That is my goal for 2017 to focus on sanitation and not so much volume. I hope we all learn that when we think we are doing a good job, know that we can do it better.

Thank you so much for posting this! I have seen other people showing these types of egg shells off on FB cemani groups touting that this is what the egg shell of a real Cemani looks like. No evidence to back it up. It can be detrimental to other breeders of true cemani that don't have the spots. It's just bacteria..

Of course, you've only heard back from one prof. Someone else may respond with some completely different information. It would be cool to know for certain that the black spots are from pigment from the developing chick. That really doesn't make sense to me though. It's not like the chicks are full of ink and some leaks out into the egg. I really don't think that's how melanin works. But I don't know much.

 

[birdman55]

It really shows that u must contact a precessional about certain things. And yes it was a real shocker to know not think I could be better and that I was slacking. I'm sure when u tell someone the black spots are just because ur lazy and don't clean ur stuff enough not that u have pure birds. And that ur selling birds that are not taken care of with good sanitation. I'm sure the reaction alone will be awesome. I can take corrective criticism ok. But for some it will slap their ego and u will lite a flame under them. As for pigment stuck on the egg. There r two membranes between chick n shell.