The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Tiegrsi]

Have you tried addressing the feather issue through nutrition? I did a quick search and saw several different nutrition and environmental based recommendations. "Silkie feathers" on an Ayam Cemani would look something like this.

I have not, but they eat the same food as my other birds, (20%starter/grower + grit and occasional mealworms), and NONE of my other breeds have this issue. They have had feather issues since I got them (one of them had NO feathers on his back and they took a while to grow in. They weren't plucked out, they were simply not there, like they hadn't formed.) I will get some good pics later tonight to show you.

Is there a particular food or food item or nutrient that is good for making strong feathers besides protein and calcium? (They do not currently get supplemental calcium - I only give that to my layers.)

 

[Ms Biddy]

That's interesting. We feed the same as you and don't currently have feather issues. Hard feathers as well as sparse feathers are traits I've noticed with some of the very black birds advertised as being from Indonesian lines, but I don't know enough about it to know if those traits are considered positive, negative, a sign of inbreeding depression or ? I just assumed the slow feathering birds caught up eventually and had healthy feathers once they got there.

 

[Blue Eager]

I remember this place and I remember that post. They dropped off the map for quite a while, are they back? Ayam Cemani originated as a color morph from a multicolor landrace breed. I almost want to repeat that because if you really understand it then you also understand why they don't necessarily "breed true." Now, you can take the blackest ones and concentrate the fibromelanistic genetics, just realize that without the original genetic diversity of the parent breed you may work yourself into a corner and end up with infertile, silkie feathered or otherwise overly inbred birds. In that case it doesn't really matter how black they are. Ayam Cemani as its own breed still has kinks to work out. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they have a stable line of the "real thing" with no culls. Look what their reviewer said about fertility and color flaws. I've heard similar complaints from people who bought the FLF new line. My conclusion is we're all in the same boat. Those of us with color flawed birds don't have fakes. We have someone else's culls, which at an earlier point probably would have been their keepers.

Evidently the company is still doing business. This eBay sale took place in Feb of this year.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/8-AYAM-CEMA...RAVEN-LINE-RARE-POULTRY-OUTPOST-/273057040376

Look at the photos carefully. See the red on the wattles & face?

 

[Ms Biddy]

I do see the red, faintly on some of the birds. The EBay seller, aka Rare Poultry Outpost states that their line came from Cemani Farms. Isn't that the same Cemani Farms that was a poster on this forum? When you start reading all those old threads, and this one, there is a lot of arguing about what makes a "real" AC. At that time, one side of the argument was that any visible mulberry meant you didn't have the real thing. I don't know where those old arguments stand today. Part of me is curious and enjoys the back and forth. The other part of me knows the landrace origins of the color morph and the complexity of the genes and modifiers. It seems logical that color variation will be seen. I don't believe it means the birds are fake. The participants in the original threads have moved on and it does make carrying on the discussion difficult.

 

[Blue Eager]

You are absolutely correct Ms Biddy. Anyone in the states selling their Cemanis as ”perfect” should be considered false advertising. No such strain exists except supposedly those from Indonesia. Even here there is no data to support a Cemani bred that breeds true with respect to consistent all black offspring.

I am very curious to know what the Ayam Cemani Breeders Association determines as their standard of perfection for this breed. I am sure the reason it is taking so long to reach a consensus/decision is due to the same discussions/debates we’ve been having here. Where does one draw the line with respect to what is acceptable & what isn’t?

 

[Tiegrsi]

Ok. I didn't manage to get too many great pictures, but I think I got enough.

Firstly, I am almost 100% positive now that I have only 3 pullets out of the 9 birds I wound up with. That's not TOO bad, so I think I am going to keep Dahmer and choose one other cockerel until I can find a good rooster from outside their line.

As for feathers...This girl is one of the worst ones, but there are others with the same problem. It seems to only be an issue on the primary and secondary feathers. About 2/3 of the way up the feathers, there seems to be a divide between the feathers, and the tips are brittle and break or rip off easily at that point in the feather.





Then I have this boy, who is the only one I seem to have with leakage. I actually really love the colors and I think I may keep him, and just not use him at all for breeding. He could be a good free-ranger layer guardian.



Faces:

Boy


Girl


Boy


Boy


Girl


Girl


Boy


Boy


I meant to post this last night but I kept falling asleep while picking pictures.

 

[Ms Biddy]

Do you think maybe she or another bird are picking the feathers? I was having some picking issues when mine were still in their grow out pen. Now that they have a lot more space, it stopped.

 

[Blue Eager]

If you zoom in on the photos, each frayed wing feather has one thing in common. The shaft tips have been severed. I think Ms Biddy is right. I wouldn’t worry. I bet they disappear after their first molt.

 

[Tiegrsi]

If you zoom in on the photos, each frayed wing feather has one thing in common. The shaft tips have been severed. I think Ms Biddy is right. I wouldn’t worry. I bet they disappear after their first molt.

I would have thought that, if I hadn't noticed the way the feathers seemed to deteriorate at that point before they had broken off like that. I tried to get a better pic on another bird where the ends are still attached. I am no photographer, so, sorry. You can kind of see it here, where at the end it looks like the feather has frayed and the barbules have separated and the feather looks more choppy instead of smooth along the shaft. The point where it goes from smooth to choppy is where the feathers are breaking off on them. It's like a weak point

 

[Ms Biddy]

It's hard to see in the photo. To me, they look like picked feathers that are becoming tattered and will eventually break at the weak points. But if she's picking her own feathers or being bullied you would be able to observe it over time, I'd think. Here is a thread about depluming mites. Not to worry you or suggest this is what it is, but if it isn't picking or a nutrition issue I'm just trying to think of other possibilities.