The American Paint Silkie

[Bat Cave Silkies]

silkieCRAZY~~~have to disagree with you, which is something I rarely do in forums, but this forum is VERY important to me. Your suggestion that people should go to the coop "if you have questions or want to get answers" is what I disagree with.....THIS forum was set up by American Paint breeders to do just that~~~ask/answer questions, discuss problems with the breeding, talk about successes, etc....there's no need for us to go elsewhere. I subscribe to the Paint thread on the coop, I read about the Paints on ASBC......but BYC is where "I" choose to discuss them. Perhaps "the coop" is the place for you

 

[featherbaby]

Thanks so much for starting a fascinating new breeding program for exquisite birds that I will someday HAVE to HAVE! You all are going to bankrupt me yet! HA!

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

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Those chicks are adorable.

I love the Paints.

 

[SilkieCRZYness]

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Hahahahaha, obviously my statement was accurate for you, you went to the Coop and got your answers, learned, read, and saw pictures. So you say there's no need for you to go elsewhere, lol you already did! And thanks for telling me to go to the coop, I just posted in that same post I will be checking out the coop, learn to read! BYC is a great place to ask questions, discuss ideas and get some answers, but looks like the most information, history, and answers to most questions about Paint Silkies RIGHT NOW/SO FAR is At the coop. Especially if the creators are posting at the coop.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Because the thought is that the dominant white has "holes" in it (the paint gene that no one has identified yet) that allows the black to come through. If you use a recessive white, you will not get the spots. Recessive white is a "stronger" white gene and most American white silkies are recessive white.

I feel that no one can say that you will not get spots with A recessive white for sure yet, to many factors and way to soon. Also, how does anyone know that most American whites carry the ressesive gene? What's most, I'd like a percentage please lol. Just saying, all these answers on this thread should be started with "no on knows for sure, but I think...." just because of all the unknowns. I'd just hate to see people not try and breed paints or feel deterred because one individual has come on this thread and stated facts that are unknown about breeding paints or carriers to whites. I am one who is breeding white American silkies to black paint gene carrier silkies and if I believed what people said on this forum, would be discuaraged or even give up because supposedly I won't be able to make paints with this combination. Just giving my 2 sense to be a bit more careful when posting on this thread when there is SOOOO MANY unknowns. We need people to breed these and try different color/pattern breedings to see what works and what doesn't, so try not shut the door on ones intentions so fast when truly you don't know the truth about the facts that you are giving. Thanks

I think what Bren was saying was that one cannot know that a black from a paint breeding carries the possibility to produce/introduce paints when bred to a bird that does not also come from a paint line without test breeding.

With lavenders and porcelains, far too many people do not understand what it takes for lavender to express, and that is why there are so many people out there that are calling all sorts of colours lavender or porcelain, when in fact they may well NOT carry two copies of lav, or if they do, they are also expressing other colours or patterns that are inconsistent with calling the bird "lavender" or "porcelain." Or if it came from a lavender somewhere in its past are calling it a split. The only way one can guarantee a split is if one of the parents is full lavender.

I certainly do not want this happening with paints where people take a possibility and view it as a certainty.

Is it possible that a recessive white (c/c) bird who also carries the gene or genes that create paint will display as a paint? Certainly it is possible, but from an understanding of how the genes work on the cellular level, I doubt it. I would not mind being proved wrong, but the action of dominant white at the cellular level seems more likely.

For most of the non-standard colours of silkies that have been worked on, we KNOW the genes needed from past research--simply have to breed in the right combinations of genes and breed back to type. With paint, we also have to research exactly what we are dealing with, becasue we do not KNOW. Why are the European percentages different than the American percentages? Is it carried by the solid white or black parents? Or does it require something carried by each? What causes the off-coloured hackles, and why does it occasionally (& what percentage of the time) cover far more than just the hackles? Lots more questions to resolve, too.

 

[SilkieCRZYness]

"I think what Bren was saying was that one cannot know that a black from a paint breeding carries the possibility to produce/introduce paints when bred to a bird that does not also come from a paint line without test breeding."

If I have a black offspring from two paint parents, (siblings of this were paints and whites) doesn't this black carry the paint gene??? Or atleast one copie possibly two?? If both parents have two copies, all siblings must have atleast one copie, some two and it shows with the spots obviously but on the black offspring, they could have two copies as well but no one knows that yet because people admitted like Bren, to just selling off the blacks and not try breeding them. I'm pretty sure white will not come through on the black birds, so how would you know how many copies of the unknown paint gene the black offsprings are carrying. Maybe they carry two doses, but with no leakage how would one know? Say the blackndod carry 1 or 2 doses, wouldn't that be a viable addition to any paint breeding program to help push out more offspring with the paint gene? Why just sell them?
Now with that said and hopefully some Of it right ( correct me if I'm wrong I'm no pro and trying to learn to) if you breed the black offspring with one copy of the gene or possibly two, to white American silkies to improve type and continue working on the Paint Colour, then bred all babies back to the black carrier, a certain percentage would be carriers of the one copie of the paint gene and you should have some Paints or atleast 2 copied paint gene birds working 2 generations. Now I did not say that a certain percentage would have visible spots to the human eye, ( because of the whites possibly being recessive and not dominant that is) but wouldn't some of the white offspring be true paints, but if they are recessive whites and not dominant whites we would not know because they would not have any leakage from the recessive gene? I know that sounds confusing but Suze, please tell me if that makes any sense. On the flip side, maybe some white chicks will come out with spots, proving you wrong and showing that either one I AM SO LUCKY and have Dominant based american whites or I proved that recessive whites can have the spots come through. Then again, no one has any idea if the whites are recessive or dominant unless bred for several more generations because the whites don't hatch out of an egg with a name tag: "I'm Recessive" or "I'm Dominant" there is not physical way of know what anyones whites has without linebreeding correct?

 

[SilkieCRZYness]

Oh and blacks and whites who have leakage in the hackles or other places, could they be Dominant based? Or does leakage in the American White Silkies in there hackles, (whether it's hormones or lacking melanizers) something unrelated to allowing black leakage from the paint gene. I guess what I'm saying, if you have a white bird, that has silver in his hackles, does that mean he is recessive or dominant based or does that have nothing to do with that part of it's gentic makeup? Thanks

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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I'll answer this one first as the answer is shorter. The leakage shows in both the American and European lines, and yes, it is speculated and being tested for dominant white. NO ONE knows the genetic makeup of paints. There are some THEORIES, but it will take research and testing to try to figure it out. This what was meant by "not for the faint of heart."

 

[PremierSilkies]

I will enjoy lurking on ALL the paint silkie sources, even the ones that need translation, ; )

Enjoy the pics & info being shared.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Well, we do not know that there IS a "paint gene," or if instead it is an allele of another gene, or is even a combination of alleles from several different genes. The working theory by those who have been breeding them for 10+ years is that paint is an allele of dominant white, and is dominant to the not-white (i+) allele. (Where it falls in dominance among the other dominant white alleles is not yet tested. Right now still testing to determine if it IS dominant white, as analyzed breeding indicates is most likely.) If paint is a dominant white allele, the postulated dominance could be stated as I > I^p > i+. Thus, if present it WILL show.

Using I^p to indicate paint, if each paint parent carries one copy of I^p, then 50% will inherit one copy of I^p, 25% will inherit 2 copies and 25% will inherit no copies. Under this scenario and theoreticized dominance, birds with one copy could be white or paint, depending on whether their other dominant white allele is I or i+; birds with two copies would be paint and birds with zero copies would be white or black depending on whether the other dominant white allele is I or i+.

I/I = white
I/I^p = paint
I^p/I^p = paint
I^p/i+=paint
i+/i+ = not-white (black)

Toss in other possible dominant white alleles, and you may have even more possibilities of expression, so I tried to simplify it by ignoring them here. Just realize that in real life they cannot be ignored, although laboratory smoky is very rare, and dun is still not common. Toss in that recessive white is common in silkies, and it could pop up even in lines that are thought to be dominant white, throwing off the percentage of whites.

Or at least one copie possibly two?? If both parents have two copies, all siblings must have atleast one copie, some two and it shows with the spots obviously but on the black offspring, they could have two copies as well but no one knows that yet because people admitted like Bren, to just selling off the blacks and not try breeding them.

By all means, please test to see if you can get paints from the black birds; if you can, it will dramatically change what is currently considered considered the most likely genetic theory of paints (by those that have been deliberately breeding them for many years). You are speculating that paint is recessive rather than dominant or incompletely dominant, and that a single copy does not express.

I'm pretty sure white will not come through on the black birds, so how would you know how many copies of the unknown paint gene the black offsprings are carrying. Maybe they carry two doses, but with no leakage how would one know? Say the blackndod carry 1 or 2 doses, wouldn't that be a viable addition to any paint breeding program to help push out more offspring with the paint gene? Why just sell them?

Once again, you are speculating that paint is recessive. You are also speculating that black (not-white or ?) turns off the expression of paint. Paint does not appear to act like a recessive gene, based upon the the outcome of percentages of breeding paints to blacks. For that matter, if it is recessive, in should NEVER express in the first generation of a cross between a paint and a black that did not come from a paint breeding heritage.

Now with that said and hopefully some Of it right ( correct me if I'm wrong I'm no pro and trying to learn to) if you breed the black offspring with one copy of the gene or possibly two, to white American silkies to improve type and continue working on the Paint Colour, then bred all babies back to the black carrier, a certain percentage would be carriers of the one copie of the paint gene and you should have some Paints or atleast 2 copied paint gene birds working 2 generations.

If paint is a recessive gene, and is carried hidden by the blacks from a paint heritage, half their offspring would inherit that hidden copy, and would also remove a copy of recessive white from that parent. Bred together, you would get paints in the 2nd generation.

Now I did not say that a certain percentage would have visible spots to the human eye, ( because of the whites possibly being recessive and not dominant that is) but wouldn't some of the white offspring be true paints, but if they are recessive whites and not dominant whites we would not know because they would not have any leakage from the recessive gene? I know that sounds confusing but Suze, please tell me if that makes any sense.

Recessive white CAN be leaky, but is less so than dominant white. One would generally expect that a bird pure for recessive white to not show paint. Breed a recessive white bird to a non-white bird and you should not expect white offspring unless the non-white is carrying recessive white.

On the flip side, maybe some white chicks will come out with spots, proving you wrong and showing that either one I AM SO LUCKY and have Dominant based american whites or I proved that recessive whites can have the spots come through. Then again, no one has any idea if the whites are recessive or dominant unless bred for several more generations because the whites don't hatch out of an egg with a name tag: "I'm Recessive" or "I'm Dominant" there is not physical way of know what anyones whites has without linebreeding correct?

There is a current breeding test that will show whether the whites are dominant or recessive. Should have results later this year.​