The Buckeye Thread

[Wynette]

I can see that there are two different schools of thought on raising show quality Buckeyes (and probably other breeds as well) and that there are some very strong voices defending each of the two sides. I find it odd that there seems to be teams debating on the SoP.

So here goes- I hope this does not kick off another round of ruffled feathers and chest thumping.

Can each of the teams please describe the point system regarding both "type" and "color" as well as describe the specific steps you take when selecting show quality birds?

(I think I've got the carcass thing and chicken noodles down pat. My Buckeyes are already exceeding expectations in that area and have been judged and approved by friends and family alike!)

This is an excellent question and - believe it or now - it CAN be discussed without finger pointing and naming names.

I was watching this thread last night, and got to thinking about the comparisons being made as far as a utility flock and an exhibition flock. Neither are right or wrong. The breeder needs to determine what his/her goals are. These discussions happen in each & every critter shown. I have history with horses; I've had them many, many years. We have many Amish in our state; everyone has seen (in person or in pictures) how the Amish use draft horses to plow the land, pull wagons, and for other general farm duties. We're also all very familiar with Thorobreds and the fact that they're bred to run fast - real fast. Would a T-bred be able to pull a plow? HECK NO! Nor could a draft horse run a mile. Well, he could, but not fast. The thing is, neither is "the right way" to breed a horse or "the wrong way" - each has its purpose. My point: live & let live. Decide what you want to breed for, and then go for it!

 

[HappyBuckeye]

This is an excellent question and - believe it or now - it CAN be discussed without finger pointing and naming names.

I was watching this thread last night, and got to thinking about the comparisons being made as far as a utility flock and an exhibition flock. Neither are right or wrong. The breeder needs to determine what his/her goals are. These discussions happen in each & every critter shown. I have history with horses; I've had them many, many years. We have many Amish in our state; everyone has seen (in person or in pictures) how the Amish use draft horses to plow the land, pull wagons, and for other general farm duties. We're also all very familiar with Thorobreds and the fact that they're bred to run fast - real fast. Would a T-bred be able to pull a plow? HECK NO! Nor could a draft horse run a mile. Well, he could, but not fast. The thing is, neither is "the right way" to breed a horse or "the wrong way" - each has its purpose. My point: live & let live. Decide what you want to breed for, and then go for it!

Exactly! Draft horses are bred for work. I get what you're saying there. They might be dirty and muddy in the field or pulling timber from forests, but clean them up and pick the finest specimen from the best breeding and they could be selected for the show. Look at the Clydesdales for the Anheuser-Busch Budweiser hitch. These are fine workhorses who are also magnificent show specimens. Just take a look at the specification required to even qualify for that elite team. They have very specific coloring and trait requirements beyond just being a draft horse to even qualify for the Budweiser hitch and that is what makes all the difference when you see them working together. In my mind, for the horse comparisons, that is what most closely resembles the Buckeye. I know how to breed them as a "work horse" or barnyard chicken. The question is, without compromising the type of chicken that they are (large bodied American Class like the Jersey Giants, Hollands, Rocks, and RIRs), how do you perfect the other 40% of the traits Bluface mentioned to make them show quality as well?
We're not aiming for a show quality race horse, though, so we need to be careful not select Buckeyes that more closely resemble a Cochin in fluffiness or a Leghorn in raciness as what a show quality Buckeye should be. If they are draft horses, show them as the finest specimen of a draft horse. If we could just agree on that, maybe all the other traits will fall into place.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[Fred's Hens]

IMHO, breeding Buckeyes for utility and exhibition are one and the same. The SOP's description for breeds such as the Buckeye were written at a time when these were America's food. Following the SOP will result in both an utility & an exhibition fowl. There is no difference.

The birds I have exhibited and won at shows with also produce offspring which are nice fowl for the dinner table and whose hens give enough eggs to sell on the side. One and the same.

This. The best answer to the false and artificially constructed question asked of our other American Class breeds as well. "Do you breed to the SOP, for show, or for thrift and utility?" I always answer the same way. Yes.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Can each of the teams please describe the point system regarding both "type" and "color" as well as describe the specific steps you take when selecting show quality birds?

I won't speak for a "team" but I can speak for myself...
In selecting for breeding or showing, I first look to the SOP. I believe that following the breed description will produce birds that could serve in both capacities.
I must admit, I go to color first, BUT I also hatch a LOT of chicks. In the cockerels especially, the light colors go to make someone's tummy happy. The dark ones get picked up and handled and the type is then the most important. I have a couple of lighter colored pullets and hens I have yet to make the final cut with, and I might allow a couple of them in my breeding pen, but it is because I know I have males who will bring the dark mahogany and extend the undercolor if needed, but those lighter hens and pullets will have type that will save them from the dinner pot this season.
My Bucks must be robust, they must have balance, they must have depth, feather quality and width, they must have the appropriate color on top, underneath, on the beak, eye, wattles, comb, legs, tail. That is the goal. Will every bird come out that way? No, I guarantee it won't (sorry for the earlier wording, because I would never guarantee a perfect bird). Will I have more of them coming close to meeting the SOP perfection. I believe so.
I do not show much, in fact, I have just started this fall at showing the birds myself. I am not as worried about myself, but I sell to kids who take their birds in 4-H. Some go to State Fair. I want the birds I breed to be the best example of what the Buckeye should be for whoever sees them so that I can make people aware that these wonderful birds exist and are here for the taking.
All that being said, if they also don't lay for poop, then what they heck would I want to keep them for? Yes, they need to serve their function in both eggs and meat. Would I sacrifice one for the other? Not if I can help it.
I do not speak for anyone else, as I said. I know some will want to breed for a heftier bird for meat use. Some will want to breed a more thrifty bird for egg laying, and that is fine by me.
But if a person is planning to slap them up on the table for review and critique, then bring the best you can produce that meets the SOP.

The SOP weighs Type/Shape 63 points and Color 37 points. Of that 37, 28 points are giving to feather color. How can a breeder of Buckeyes ignore over 1/4 of what the breed is supposed to look like? Yes, type is more important, but is it so much more important that you just throw out color? Not to me.

 

[Ivagrove]

Chris and Fred, you are absolutely right. There is only one description of the breed, and it applies to all of the uses that the bird can be used for. When people are told to " read the SOP", it means read the whole thing. The individual breed description is not enough.

 

[HappyBuckeye]

IMHO, breeding Buckeyes for utility and exhibition are one and the same. The SOP's description for breeds such as the Buckeye were written at a time when these were America's food. Following the SOP will result in both an utility & an exhibition fowl. There is no difference.

The birds I have exhibited and won at shows with also produce offspring which are nice fowl for the dinner table and whose hens give enough eggs to sell on the side. One and the same.

This. The best answer to the false and artificially constructed question asked of our other American Class breeds as well. "Do you breed to the SOP, for show, or for thrift and utility?" I always answer the same way. Yes.

Did someone ask that question? "Do you breed to the SOP, for show, or for thrift and utility?" I think we are all saying the same thing here and yes, the answer would be "Yes".

The question is- If you only have "show quality" chickens walking around on your farm how do you determine which ones to send to the shows? Do you just load them all up? Surely there is some way to distinguish which ones are of higher caliber and worthy of the show pen?

 

[Wynette]

IMHO, breeding Buckeyes for utility and exhibition are one and the same. The SOP's description for breeds such as the Buckeye were written at a time when these were America's food. Following the SOP will result in both an utility & an exhibition fowl. There is no difference.

The birds I have exhibited and won at shows with also produce offspring which are nice fowl for the dinner table and whose hens give enough eggs to sell on the side. One and the same.

Hmmm...while I agree with what you say in theory, those who show may have a bit different of an opinion. Why? Because even if we DO have an SOP that was written "back in the day" when breeding for utility was quit possibly (and likely) the main descriptor for a breed, the fact is that birds, over time, do evolve, so to speak, in response to how the judges have placed them. Anyone exhibiting Plymouth Rocks can attest to that, by way of the "White Rocks" being shown today.

Not trying to cause an argument, just providing a different viewpoint. So, if you're breeding for exhibition, you may be looking for qualities that are just a bit different. Again, just my opinion - I do not claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[Fred's Hens]

Wynette, I know exactly what you're saying and that element will always be there whenever humans are involved in judging.
The breeder has to decide whether he/she wants to play to that or not.