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Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Happy Chooks, Jul 10, 2013.
Thank you for a respectful response. . I don't have the issue in the birds I am breeding. I have seen it in birds I have observed at shows and also in some back yards. And yes the dreaded internet pictures.
What I find I interesting is that a breed like the old English game bantam should have a well folded wing tucked under the saddle feathers yet they don't have the poofiness I have observed in some buckeyes. I raise these as well and see wings to low and to high not only in mine but in other breeders. It's a known issue that all breeders are working on together.
I agree that the tip of the wing may not have much mass but if sitting to high couldn't it displace the saddle feathers? Kind of like putting your hand in your armpit which makes your arm stick out farther than intended? Lol gross analogy but easy way to describe what I'm thinking. My fingers don't have much mass but displace my arm. Idk
Chris Who or what breeders are trying to endorse birds with lower wing carriage? As I stated to Medic I've not observed this in my flock or the poof in the saddle feathers. My cockerels have a nice well folded wing per SOP without poof of feathers in the saddle (which the SOP doesn't endorse)
What lines are producing the fluffiness in the thigh feathers, cushion/poof on the hens backs and poof of feathers on the males saddles?
I think at times some of the photos that have been shown on social media of birds having what would be considered low wing carriage,may result in heat issues. It seems that at times when these where being shown by others that it was during the summer months and the birds were not holding their natural position. I know that there were some comments about my roo and well I can say that yes it was during the summer and the temps were very hot. I have been watching them since them and can say that his wings don't always stay low but most times will be back in their normal position. I also have seen this in person at recent shows during the summer on buckeyes and other breeds. Post to the owners and they agreed that it was due to high heat temps and that normally the wings would not be that low. One even showed me pictures of the same birds when temps were not so high and well the wings were not showing to be low. All this fuss is just that fuss I believe and I think that some in here respond with what I think is an attitude towards others and that needs to stop. Everyone is going to agree on some points that the SoP states while on other characteristics they will just agree to disagree. Again it is in the eye of the beholder and is open to interpretation. Same goes with the judges. They will read it one way and you will read it another. No one will ever read it the same and agree. For this reason I don't and won't show birds as people are just to darn hostile towards others and it shows. But I do want to help better the breed. I can do that without showing and continue to breed, hatch, raise and help educate others on the breed.
LOL I should have added that those males that are all fired up to breed without first displaying the necessary courtship behaviors have the shortest lifespan of all. Not because they wear out, but because once I observe a cockerel hanging out near the roosts in the evening, trying to run down hens and breed them without attempting to win over any hens of their own, they are caught and sold as soon as possible.
This is a rather large free range flock, and as much as possible I want the birds to be able to engage in whatever fascinating behaviors they choose. If this were a more natural setting, the younger cockerels would be driven out to the border of the cock's territory where they would try to 'steal' pullets and older hens away from the resident cock and eventually move off with them to start their own flock. If an area is full of predators, those young males are the first ones to get picked off, which I suspect is the real reason non monogamous flocking birds are born in a 50/50 male to female ratio. All those extra boys were born to be lunch, allowing the more valuable females and the dominant male to reproduce.
But this is not a natural setting. Here, the birds are drawn back to one area because they love me. (Ah ha ha ha) No, really, it's the food. The attraction of a steady food supply means the young males aren't as inclined to strike out on their own and the protection of the guard dogs means they will be more likely to return if they do. Anyway, it's too disruptive to have all that worthless testosterone running around. Left to their own devices, they quickly pick up bad habits, so if they aren't an exceptional looking bird that I will use for breeding I periodically play Coyote and remove them from the flock myself.
Ok, I'm going to make this short and sweet, because quite frankly I'm exhausted from gathering and selling chickens and turkeys all day for customer's Thanksgiving dinners.
I mentioned the wing carriage because in my opinion that high of a wing carriage draws the eye to the fluff in the legs. Simply an aesthetic thing. To me, it looks like an unnatural wing angle. I am certainly not suggesting the wing carriage causes the fluff in the legs or in the saddle. I think it is an over all fluff problem as you said.
No doubt you have the ability to build a large bodied bird and I am not suggesting your Buckeyes are junk. Clearly they are show quality and close to the SoP. However, IMO, under your current method of selection, you are building a bird that is so wide with a back so long that it can't carry it's tail properly. It seems to me you are aiming for all long horizontal lines. The back is horizontal and parallel to the ground and you are breeding to get the wings to do the same thing based on your interpretation of the SoP. If you keep moving in this direction you may begin to having wings that have a higher angle than the tails. My question is at what point do you say the body is where it needs to be and start working on the other traits that make an impressive Buckeye?
If I were faced with the same collection of traits, which I am not and mine are no where near show quality, my steps to move my line further towards the SoP would be to select for a back that "slopes slightly downward to the base of the tail" which would help improve the tail angle as it somewhat has in the progeny above (unless that is an optical illusion from the camera angle) and I would keep working on the fluff. I would be looking for a more streamlined and flowing neck with longer hackle feathers so the curvature is more readily visible and the same in the saddle, aiming for more flowing and longer feathering with less fluff, so that they cover the wing bows and wing tips as they should. My guess is that slight tilt of the back would also tilt the wings and would get rid of the horizontal parallel.
I don't imagine these comments will be well received, but thank you anyway for your time and the discussion.
I have read back through the posts and the only person that stuck out that people insisted had low wing carriage was Joe. I've been to his farm several times and let me tell you those statements are wrong. It is of poor form to suggest he breeds birds with low wing carriage. The man has unofficially accomplished the first ever grand master for the breed which further illustrates anyones comments about the wings on his birds to be poor taste. He's done what those who came before him couldn't in a very short amount of time. Instead of disagreeing or discredit in maybe we should all be asking him for his assistance in our programs?
No breeder that I know of breeds low wings. One thing that I can tell you is that Joe doesn't have problems with poofy thighs and saddles; so to say every line of buckeyes has this problem is incorrect. I myself have a cock bird and three hens from his line that I am using to reestablish my flock after the fox kill. The cock bird is a breeder only yet has medium saddle, well tucked wings and no saddle poof. Hens don't have cushion nor do they have fluffiness in the thighs and bum area.
You had mentioned previously having an issue getting to the correct tail angle...just a suggestion if you will take the assistance. If you breed a cock or cockerel with a little less width to the back it should correct the tail angle. Trying to help a fellow breeder as I feel we need to help each other for the betterment of the breed.