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Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Happy Chooks, Jul 10, 2013.
Thank you for breaking down your interpretation of the SoP. It would be fool hardy for me (or any breeder for that matter) to assume my visualization of the verbal description in the SoP is the same as another person's visualization and that is why back and forth discussions are so helpful for a new person. As I am studying all of this, I consider all resources available in addition to the SoP itself. I've found a number of great websites that help to break down the SoP and apply it to specific breeds. Over and over again I've heard the advise to use black and white pictures or "cuts" to evaluate the type and how seeing the top line is so important to visualize the over all silhouette the breed should have. This is all in reference to type and so tail angle is definitely part of this evaluation. True, there can be a lot of traits or even defects that are hard to evaluate under the feathering and that's why you can't judge them simply by a picture or the silhouette.
The reason I asked those questions is because in my mind's eye (or interpretation of the SoP) , NECK: Medium in length, well-arched should look like a curvature that makes a nice even arc from the shoulders up to the head with the fullest part of the curve around mid neck and tapered nicely should look like hackle feathers that gradually decrease in thickness or width. IMO, the offspring is displaying an exaggerated curve or right hook close to the head with a rather full feathered neck. There appears to be a hump at the back of the neck in line with the jaw line. I realize I could be wrong in my visualization of the SoP, so I do hope there is more discussion evaluating this part of the SoP.
I agree the fluffiness in the thighs are improved in the offspring. I think the fluff would be a little less noticeable if the wings were carried slightly lower as well, but that's just my opinion.
As far as the tail angle, I don't really see that 40 degrees and that is the primary reason I asked. Again, in my mind's eye, 40 degrees means half of perpendicular (90 degrees) minus 5 degrees. The horizontal line runs straight across the flat part of the back and the tail angle measurement starts at the base of the tail. I know when any two people try to eyeball measurements they are likely going to see things differently so I copied your pictures put them into a photo editor and drew the angles. No matter how I played with it, I could not come up with 40 degrees. I'm just trying to learn this not make an open criticism.
Like I said before I use a lot of resource materials and a while ago I saved the slide presentation by Doug Akers from 2010 on judging show poultry. In that presentation he teaches there are three important factors in exhibition judging- Type, Condition, and Color. He starts out with type and tail angles is the first topic under type. I've studied these slides before, but it was good to go back and review the photographs and illustrations on tail angles that meet the SoP. I'm not going to offer my opinion on the tail angles you have there, but I will post the links in case you want to review the slides that formed my interpretation of the SoP.
http://www3.ag.purdue.edu/counties/perry/Documents/4-H/Judging Chicken Breeds.pdf
Again, thank you for your time in answering a newbie's questions. I hope a few more people will weigh in on the discussion as I still have lots to learn. Cheers!
Happy what a great informative book
I have heard their are downloadable materials on the livestock conservancy site just for Buckeye breeders. This next year will be my first one with chicks so i will be sure to use it
I've been to their website and the few docs that are there are for rebuilding a stock that is on their list. They are great documents but to truly be in line with this thread we should be using the SOP to build the breed properly.
Happys document is an excellent tool for using in conjunction with the SOP to build your flock as the SOP is meant to conserve the unique traits of each poultry breed.
Happy- nicely written post. I love seeing newbies doing research and asking questions. Sometimes we who are to close to the breed learn from a person with fresh eyes. Keep researching and asking questions that is what this thread is for. To learn and improve our breeding/show stock.
This post is right on. I agree with you completly.
That's a good average. This is one of those maddening, non committal answers, but, "it depends". Currently, the oldest (working) rooster here is 8, but as I have several males that I prefer to breed from, all he sires is breakfast. I've not had Buckeyes long enough to be able to speak authoritatively on long term fertility the males, or even the breed in general, as IMHO that takes a minimum of 10 years, but my original Buckeye hen "Calamity Jane" is still here and was hatching chicks this past summer, and one of the males from ideal hatchery in Texas that same year is also still around with a devoted fan club of four hens.
Overall, the "hot blooded" birds that try to keep a large harem seem to burn out pretty quick, (they start acting old at 4 years), while the less ambitious birds with one or two hens just mosey along, minding their own business year after year. I've found that to be true across the breeds; a cock's temperament as far as a willingness to acquire and keep hens is more dependent on the individual than the breed.
In regards to wings being to high or to low I'm going to assume(bad word) everyone remembers their highschool science classes. In the matter of displacement of matter we know that if you have a beaker that is a cup measurement and it is 3/4 full the adding of another half cup of liquid would cause the liquid to overflow the container.
Take a cock bird with a wide back and look at him. If I see a puff of the saddle feathers and the only common factor is the wings are tucked high under the saddle I would then determine that the wings are displacing the saddle feathers and would need to find a hen with "slightly" lower wing carriage to correct that in the next generation.
The wings shouldn't be bred to drag the ground or be lower than the hock IMO but they also shouldn't be so high as to give the appearance on the bird that it has a poof of feathers coming out of its sides.
No I don't want to re-write the SOP. It's to much of a headache.
Not an argument just an observation and thought process I use.
With respect, I read and considered your thought process about wings, saddles, volume and mass displacement and came to a conclusion that were there actual flesh and bone displacing feathers it would be a valid concern but we're talking feathers. And not just feathers, but the tips and ends of feathers that we all know have very little mass.
I also asked myself some questions as to what is my own personal vision and about how Buckeye truly is supposed to look. This 'poofieness' you speak of, this is something you've observed in your own birds? in other peoples birds (having seen them live and in person and not via the treacherous online photo)? really, this is a problem facing the breed?