The Buckeye Thread

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[HappyBuckeye]

FWIW:

Should Buckeye have that bend in their necks?

The simple answer to your questions is yes. I do not call it a "bend." The answer though is that the SOP (which I have recommended you read) says about the Buckeye male neck: "NECK: Medium in length, well-arched, tapered nicely." What you call a bend, I call WELL ARCHED and so YES, it should be well arched or have a bend if you prefer that language. If your necks are not well arched, this is something you need to look at. It is in the SOP.

Fluffy thighs?

No, feathering should be tighter and you can see that the younger bird has much less. I paired with female who had less.

40 degrees for male's tail:

Yes, 40 degrees in the male. If you look at the main tail feathers, you can see them best in the younger bird, they are right at 40 degrees. No, I do not consider it to be "type" unless off because of a defect in the body (or way off). In other words, I consider a little lower or higher tail to be detrimental if it is pointing to some flaw in the body (sometimes, it is), some defect and not simply a variation in the orientation of the pope's nose.

On page 28 & 29 of the SOP, it talks about "SHAPE AND TYPE" discussing type saying "It is imperative that shape and type be considered of greatest importance . . ." The SOP then goes on to discuss what I am referring to as type: HEAD, BACK & BODY (Abdominal Capacity and Heart-Girth). As the SOP says about my "primary focus," I consider it OF GREATEST IMPORTANCE.

Positive and negative traits of each bird.

Sire:

Negatives:
fluffy thighs, too dark with too much black on his surface color (all over his body); bad comb. A little too large by SOP standards (9 lbs as a cockerel and 10 lbs as a cock)

Positives:
great back (wide, rather long); good front, nice spacing between the legs, one of the best bodies I have touched, nice skull width.

The offspring male:

Positives:

excellent color (no black on surface feathers); thighs much less fluffy, nice medium size head, decent width in back, well arched neck, decent front; his weight as a cockerel & cock were SOP perfect (8 lbs & 9 lbs), nice comb shape

Negatives: I would like a tad bit more in the length of the back.

Thank you for breaking down your interpretation of the SoP. It would be fool hardy for me (or any breeder for that matter) to assume my visualization of the verbal description in the SoP is the same as another person's visualization and that is why back and forth discussions are so helpful for a new person. As I am studying all of this, I consider all resources available in addition to the SoP itself. I've found a number of great websites that help to break down the SoP and apply it to specific breeds. Over and over again I've heard the advise to use black and white pictures or "cuts" to evaluate the type and how seeing the top line is so important to visualize the over all silhouette the breed should have. This is all in reference to type and so tail angle is definitely part of this evaluation. True, there can be a lot of traits or even defects that are hard to evaluate under the feathering and that's why you can't judge them simply by a picture or the silhouette.

The reason I asked those questions is because in my mind's eye (or interpretation of the SoP) , NECK: Medium in length, well-arched should look like a curvature that makes a nice even arc from the shoulders up to the head with the fullest part of the curve around mid neck and tapered nicely should look like hackle feathers that gradually decrease in thickness or width. IMO, the offspring is displaying an exaggerated curve or right hook close to the head with a rather full feathered neck. There appears to be a hump at the back of the neck in line with the jaw line. I realize I could be wrong in my visualization of the SoP, so I do hope there is more discussion evaluating this part of the SoP.

I agree the fluffiness in the thighs are improved in the offspring. I think the fluff would be a little less noticeable if the wings were carried slightly lower as well, but that's just my opinion.

As far as the tail angle, I don't really see that 40 degrees and that is the primary reason I asked. Again, in my mind's eye, 40 degrees means half of perpendicular (90 degrees) minus 5 degrees. The horizontal line runs straight across the flat part of the back and the tail angle measurement starts at the base of the tail. I know when any two people try to eyeball measurements they are likely going to see things differently so I copied your pictures put them into a photo editor and drew the angles. No matter how I played with it, I could not come up with 40 degrees. I'm just trying to learn this not make an open criticism.

Like I said before I use a lot of resource materials and a while ago I saved the slide presentation by Doug Akers from 2010 on judging show poultry. In that presentation he teaches there are three important factors in exhibition judging- Type, Condition, and Color. He starts out with type and tail angles is the first topic under type. I've studied these slides before, but it was good to go back and review the photographs and illustrations on tail angles that meet the SoP. I'm not going to offer my opinion on the tail angles you have there, but I will post the links in case you want to review the slides that formed my interpretation of the SoP.

http://www3.ag.purdue.edu/counties/perry/Documents/4-H/Judging Chicken Breeds.pdf

Again, thank you for your time in answering a newbie's questions. I hope a few more people will weigh in on the discussion as I still have lots to learn. Cheers!

 

[Apdeb]

Happy what a great informative book
I have heard their are downloadable materials on the livestock conservancy site just for Buckeye breeders. This next year will be my first one with chicks so i will be sure to use it

 

[slfarms]

Happy what a great informative book
I have heard their are downloadable materials on the livestock conservancy site just for Buckeye breeders. This next year will be my first one with chicks so i will be sure to use it

I've been to their website and the few docs that are there are for rebuilding a stock that is on their list. They are great documents but to truly be in line with this thread we should be using the SOP to build the breed properly.

Happys document is an excellent tool for using in conjunction with the SOP to build your flock as the SOP is meant to conserve the unique traits of each poultry breed.

Just MHO.

Happy- nicely written post. I love seeing newbies doing research and asking questions. Sometimes we who are to close to the breed learn from a person with fresh eyes. Keep researching and asking questions that is what this thread is for. To learn and improve our breeding/show stock.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[Luckytaz]

cgmccary,
This post is right on. I agree with you completly.

 

[buffalogal]

Generally, how long are you finding the roosters good to breed for the pen? It seems to be about 5 years for me.

That's a good average. This is one of those maddening, non committal answers, but, "it depends". Currently, the oldest (working) rooster here is 8, but as I have several males that I prefer to breed from, all he sires is breakfast. I've not had Buckeyes long enough to be able to speak authoritatively on long term fertility the males, or even the breed in general, as IMHO that takes a minimum of 10 years, but my original Buckeye hen "Calamity Jane" is still here and was hatching chicks this past summer, and one of the males from ideal hatchery in Texas that same year is also still around with a devoted fan club of four hens.

Overall, the "hot blooded" birds that try to keep a large harem seem to burn out pretty quick, (they start acting old at 4 years), while the less ambitious birds with one or two hens just mosey along, minding their own business year after year. I've found that to be true across the breeds; a cock's temperament as far as a willingness to acquire and keep hens is more dependent on the individual than the breed.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[slfarms]

In regards to wings being to high or to low I'm going to assume(bad word) everyone remembers their highschool science classes. In the matter of displacement of matter we know that if you have a beaker that is a cup measurement and it is 3/4 full the adding of another half cup of liquid would cause the liquid to overflow the container.

Take a cock bird with a wide back and look at him. If I see a puff of the saddle feathers and the only common factor is the wings are tucked high under the saddle I would then determine that the wings are displacing the saddle feathers and would need to find a hen with "slightly" lower wing carriage to correct that in the next generation.

The wings shouldn't be bred to drag the ground or be lower than the hock IMO but they also shouldn't be so high as to give the appearance on the bird that it has a poof of feathers coming out of its sides.

No I don't want to re-write the SOP. It's to much of a headache.

Not an argument just an observation and thought process I use.