The Calico/Aloha/Mottled Naked Neck Thread

[Kev]

Ant-

some of the details are up to your own tastes. Like leg color for example. however as draye hinted at, even some of the little details can make a big difference.. again like leg color. If you are set on only yellow legs, it is best to avoid white or blue legged birds in particular.

It is because yellow legs are a combination of yellow general body skin plus Id preventing pigmentation of the legs- allowing the yellow body skin to show through 'unobstructed'.

White and blue legs are white body skin plus Id and no Id, respectively.. the latter being a 'double strike' basically. by the way, white skin is dominant over yellow skin.

Green legs is yellow skin and no Id.

Also another thing- NN flocks are supposedly deliberately mixed for color, which also means the white or blue legged birds *could* be carrying yellow skin gene but there is no way to tell by looking at them,

If you want black and white mottles, use black over the sussex. There is no way to tell if your blacks are pure for the black gene or happen to be carrying the gene for buff.

Apoc, I would guess would depend on your preference of mottling with the black bar next to the white tip(aka mille fleur) or none. I don't really know much about this little detail so this needs to be read up on- hopefully Alohachickens will comment on this? My amateur guess is he would throw mottles with black bars.

If no black is desired, then Tank Dozer and Mouse would be the best ones if my idea isn't so far off the mark.

I kind of like Dozer's color the best for starting Aloha type mottling but he presents the double challenge via white skin and blue legs. Mouse is very close second, he has yellow legs to boot but in that picture he kind of seems rather light in type? I'm guessing production might be or fair value to you- personally I easily get frustrated and give up on birds that might be pretty but are not meaty or lay well...

 

[Kev]

By the way:

Apoc and Neo are looking more if a Golden Birchen color than Partridge. JMHO though.

It's mentioned Apoc started out with yellow down though. Never happens with birchen or partridge. He is definitely Wheaten- same as all the buffs/reds, however he has other separate genes giving that sort of pattern and colors.

 

[Kev]

Thanks - Helpful!!! The SS already have white legs, so if I understand correctly, yellow + white = white anyhow, so maybe just one of the reds in general (Mouse or Cypher or Dozer or Tank?)... (and I don't care too much about leg color). I don't mind the blue legs in any of my birds.

So, this is good news, as I have a few reds to choose from. Is the reason not to use any that have black to them because they will cover/overwhelm? What sort of results (mottled or not) might I get using Apoc and Neo with either Buff or Black or Partridge girls?

- Ant Farm

If leg color truly is of no concern, then ignore it and go with your favored body type or other favored traits.

There's two kinds of black and both are dominant. Black crossed with buff/partridges will either throw all black downed or half black downed chicks and ??

Typically the black-colored crosses will grow out into roosters like Neo, with variable amount of coloring. The hens can either be all black, mostly black or show a fair amount of color usually as lacing on neck and breast- excellent example being black sex link hens, they are a cross of RIR and barred rock... barred rocks are really solid black hens with barring 'thrown over them' so the color cross concept is exactly the same.

The reason for slight difference is because one kind of black is 'more blacker' and the crosses usually have a little less color than the other kind of black which can throw a lot more color in the crosses.


The reason for not using blacks for Aloha project is because it's a dominant color, resulting at least half black chicks. If black is not desired then this will be a big hassle.... the other problem is black also covers up whatever other genes the bird might have... could be helpful.. could be harmful..

The more potential problems you can eliminate at or before the starting gate, so much the better for concentrating on the traits you are most interested in.

However if you want black mottleds, then blacks are the way to go.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

If leg color truly is of no concern, then ignore it and go with your favored body type or other favored traits.

There's two kinds of black and both are dominant. Black crossed with buff/partridges will either throw all black downed or half black downed chicks and ??

Typically the black-colored crosses will grow out into roosters like Neo, with variable amount of coloring. The hens can either be all black, mostly black or show a fair amount of color usually as lacing on neck and breast- excellent example being black sex link hens, they are a cross of RIR and barred rock... barred rocks are really solid black hens with barring 'thrown over them' so the color cross concept is exactly the same.

The reason for slight difference is because one kind of black is 'more blacker' and the crosses usually have a little less color than the other kind of black which can throw a lot more color in the crosses.


The reason for not using blacks for Aloha project is because it's a dominant color, resulting at least half black chicks. If black is not desired then this will be a big hassle.... the other problem is black also covers up whatever other genes the bird might have... could be helpful.. could be harmful..

The more potential problems you can eliminate at or before the starting gate, so much the better for concentrating on the traits you are most interested in.

However if you want black mottleds, then blacks are the way to go.

This is all very helpful, as were your explanations of the skin color associations with leg color. It's not that leg color is completely irrelevant, it's just that it's not most important to me. Also, given what I'm working with in my NN flock (quite a few white legs throughout, and blue legs in a very big cockerel - and also wanting to cross in white legged SS anyway), I'm not sure I want to work super hard on leg color compared to working on size (for production) and also feather color (for fun). (I reserve the right to change my mind later, of course. That's why it's good to be informed.)

While I can probably just pull up all your posts and systematically read them to try to learn

, is there a good reference source or primer on feather color genetics I can go to to try to build my knowledge? I know human genetics, but chicken genetics is a foreign country...

- Ant Farm

 

[draye]

Ant-
I'm bowing to the advise of Kev. She's been working on it and knows her stuff.

The main I mentioned the leg color is that @alohachickens is trying for the yellow legs on the Alohas.
I'm also trying for the yellow legs on the Aloha type NN's that I'm still going to try to produce. The other mottled ones I'm not so concerned about.

@Kev. I think I was told that before on Apoc, but my crazy mind sometimes can't remember those things. Plus trying to remember all the names of others chickens.
Question:
If a person were wanting a Mille with the black, would it be useful to say cross a Ancona rooster over the Speckled Sussex hens? Would a person get mottled chicks from that kind of mating?

I guess I'm going to have to start naming my chickens( especially roosters). Because that us usually how I group my hens together is by the sure of the group. They usually have multiple mothers.

I have done a few specific breedings single rooster to single hen.5

 

[draye]

Red is your best choice for the color mottling that you want. No black if you can help it.

Tank would be a good choice, but you'll have the white legs to deal with. They can be bred out but can take awhile.

Mouse is another in my opinion a better choice. He already has the yellow legs.
Between him and Tank ( I think you said Tank was the largest). I personally would di my best to keep both.

Dozen would work but the blue legs, um I'm trying to deal with the blue legs now. Hard to get rid of them. When needs to hens with yellow legs then you'll get green legs. Another color hard to deal with in my opinion.

The blue legs in my flock came from my Salmon rooster that I had. He carried mottling and tge current Red Mottked rooster I have now is a grandmson of his and most like the Mottled Partridge hen he's with now and I have chicks from them, is most likely his grandmother also. So Mister Red Motyled also had the blue kegs. I'll have to check to see if the offspring have blue or not.

All in all though I think probably must any can be worked with ( rooster, regardless of the color) and finally come up with the mottling but will take a good amount if time and several generations to get there.

I'm not sure where I'm going to end up with on my Aloha/Mottled project. I'm diwn to just the Aloha rooster and one red hen from the Alohas to breed from

I lost a rooster the other night and had to do some moving atound to accommodate all my hens/pullets. So now Aloha rooster is in with no hens that carry the mottling gene.

I have one other rooster that had a small possibility of carrying the mottling gene but very small. His granddaddy was the Salmon too and his mana was a Columbian color like him, so don't know of it is there it not. He is penned with three hens that are his half aunts that may also canary the mottling gene. .

These are my opinions only and the way that I would handle it. Sommer may tell you something totally different.

I hope it was helpful.

I'm still trying to learn this genetics stuff myself. My feeble mind can't seem to wrap itself around it very well.

I try reading articles in it in the web, but all those +/- and other things confuse the fire out of me. A lot of my learning is by trial. I try this one to that one, and sometimes that will throw a loop into things.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Ant-
I'm bowing to the advise of Kev. She's been working on it and knows her stuff.

The main I mentioned the leg color is that @alohachickens is trying for the yellow legs on the Alohas.
I'm also trying for the yellow legs on the Aloha type NN's that I'm still going to try to produce. The other mottled ones I'm not so concerned about.

@Kev . I think I was told that before on Apoc, but my crazy mind sometimes can't remember those things. Plus trying to remember all the names of others chickens.
Question:
If a person were wanting a Mille with the black, would it be useful to say cross a Ancona rooster over the Speckled Sussex hens? Would a person get mottled chicks from that kind of mating?

I guess I'm going to have to start naming my chickens( especially roosters). Because that us usually how I group my hens together is by the sure of the group. They usually have multiple mothers.

I have done a few specific breedings single rooster to single hen.5

Oooooh, that makes sense if the aloha chickens have yellow legs and you're trying to go along with that. It just seems like that would be a hard thing to do for me with my other goals. But I do realize that with the way that leg genetics work that the right decisions made up front can make a big difference - I'll just have to make that decision (at least I have a little time to think on it...)

All your input is very helpful, yes - thanks!!!

- Ant Farm

 

[draye]

Oooooh, that makes sense if the aloha chickens have yellow legs and you're trying to go along with that. It just seems like that would be a hard thing to do for me with my other goals. But I do realize that with the way that leg genetics work that the right decisions made up front can make a big difference - I'll just have to make that decision (at least I have a little time to think on it...)

All your input is very helpful, yes - thanks!!! 

- Ant Farm

Again if different leg colors are okay with what you're doing then don't let the yellow legs stand in the way.

Like I said with the Mottled Partridge leg color is the least if my worries right now.

 

[alohachickens]

Agreed that of all the things to worry about, leg color is probably the least important in the whole scale of things!

However, I have heard that yellow is the preferred leg color that Americans like, and so I strive for that as this is an American breed. I guess in Europe / UK they generally like pink/white best.

I have noticed, now, that on some new breeds where either leg color is OK - like the Basque or Euskal Oilia - that owners here DO lean towards a preference for yellow! I always smile a little when I see that. LOL! Gives me confirmation that I'm on the right track.

So there is no "real" reason for any leg color being better, except American buyers tend to lean towards a preference for yellow.

 

[Kev]

Agreed that of all the things to worry about, leg color is probably the least important in the whole scale of things!

However, I have heard that yellow is the preferred leg color that Americans like, and so I strive for that as this is an American breed. I guess in Europe / UK they generally like pink/white best.

I have noticed, now, that on some new breeds where either leg color is OK - like the Basque or Euskal Oilia - that owners here DO lean towards a preference for yellow! I always smile a little when I see that. LOL! Gives me confirmation that I'm on the right track.

So there is no "real" reason for any leg color being better, except American buyers tend to lean towards a preference for yellow.

Haha yes that is a very valid reason for paying attention to leg color- marketing!

I forget the history behind the start on preference for yellow skinned poultry carcasses. Similar things happened with the American preference and eventual strong bias for white eggs with yolks as bright yellow as possible, despite white eggs originally being a 'rare' thing and truly free range chickens don't really throw yellow yolks.. more like oranges, sometimes even reddish tints. I think those are gorgeous....

Some Americans refuse to eat brown eggs.... or come up all weird things like they weren't washed or whatever. Sigh..........

Never mind the meat from black skinned birds.. LOL

I want your thoughts on the mille fleur mottling vs mottle without the black bar by the white spot? I may have read something about that but keep forgetting if I actually did or what they said- see, Draye, I have problems too!